My oil burning pig. Pics too!

-
Don't know much about the guides...whether they were cut or not. Honestly I didn't know how rhey were supposed to look after the porting. I am going to check them forsure, soon as I can.

Someone told me I probably put the second ring on upside down! Can't believe I could possibly do that, but if I DID, I don't see how it would push oil into the ports. Seems impossible to me.....
 
Compare the guides as they are supposed to be BEFORE the porting, and then what you have now. Again... just something to check.

Rings often have a twist built into them; that makes them slide up the bores at a slightly different angle than they ride down the bore and improve the oil scraping. (You can find info on this from Hastings I do believe.) How that could get oil up on top of the valves is not clear to me.....??
 
I've seen total seal rings burn oil before. The cylinders have to be very precise to use them. They aren't something I would ever run on a street car.
 
well, I'll certainly never use them again, regardless of what my issue turns out to be. Guess I got "sold" on them...
 
I've had quite a few higher HP engines over the last 30 years or so and have never run a PCV set up. Never had this problem.

Been following this 'head scratcher' with interest :D
Ironmike, With Respects I must ask, of all the builds have You ever used total seal rings
in any but this one???
Thx!
 
I have the very same problem in my lofgren built 416 works great but uses oil .
Had the intake off and had oil laying in the closed intake valve . I'm going to take a more serious look at this when I finish fishing in about a month or so . I hope you find your problem because is sounds the same as mine. My new engine is using a quart to 300miles just about makes me sick and this engine has about 3500 miles on it .
 
Well, this is my first Mopar build(many Chevs), and also the first time I used Total Seal Gapless rings.

I already had them and my machinist said they don't like 'em. THEN to the dyno and they said the same damn thing. So, whether or not they're the problem here, I will NEVER use them again. I know guys that love 'em, but not me.

If this issue is NOT my heads and Not rings, I think from reading....my cam may be the culprit, causing true reversion. I bought it used, which tells me now that someone didn't like it. Seems like quite a few LS guys run into this and it's something to do with a late closing intake.....

Once I get it nailed down, I will let you guys know.

Now I have to jump somewhere else and find someone who really knows about reversion.
 
If it was crankcase pressure it would be leaking oil everywhere, not just past the intake gaskets and or valve seals.
The pcv system does nothing at WOT when crankcase pressure is at it's highest and little to no manifold vacuum.
You don't need a pcv system just adequate ventilation .
Sorry this is no help for your problem.
 
Well, this is my first Mopar build(many Chevs), and also the first time I used Total Seal Gapless rings.

Thx for the interest,

I am just an observer & reporter, not much of an theorist.
Web diag is, at best just that.
 
Ironmike - I hope you get this worked out, very nice looking car and motor. As I said earlier, I wouldn't dismiss the intake gasket as a cause. But you apparently have eliminated it. That leads to valve seals/guides in my opinion.

I wish I had my info at hand, but nothing is available to me right now. I just wanted to point out that the PC type plastic seal may not be your only option. I last used a combination rubber/plastic insert seal with dual springs on my last stroker build. It gives the same tight seal around the stem with a tight rubber interference fit/mount to to the valve guide as does the PC type seal and fits inside the dual spring.

I want to say it was made by "Pioneer"? with an OS part number or something like that. I think I came across this seal from Herb McCandless or Henseley or someone in the know. All I know is I really liked it. It allows the seal to flex sideways with the valve stem no matter the clearance, is anchored to the valve guide (unlike an umbrella seal) but still hugs the valve stem as tight as the plastic seal with its plastic insert.

As I said, I wish I had the company name/part number at hand but I don't right now. I do have it though. I would like to see you get this solved. Hope this helps.
 
I just googled Pioneer valve seals. It looked like this:
 

Attachments

  • OS-1054.jpg
    14 KB · Views: 325
I have the blue Viton seals on there, which is what Total Seal recommends. I don't know if those you pictured would be considerd a "positive" type seal. Would it?
 
What I used from Pioneer was a positive seal. Best I can recall, it looked like the picture or similar. Maybe not better than what you're using, I don't know. I suggested it as something to consider when you replace seals. FWIW.
 
Well, this is my first Mopar build(many Chevs), and also the first time I used Total Seal Gapless rings.

I already had them and my machinist said they don't like 'em. THEN to the dyno and they said the same damn thing. So, whether or not they're the problem here, I will NEVER use them again. I know guys that love 'em, but not me.
I used Total Seals once, on a rally car engine. Did not feel any power difference and it just wore the bores and ring grooves out fast. I'd suspect a high powered drag engine would be the place for them.
 
make sure your using the right dia.valve stem seal /8mm,11/32 or 3/8, heads could have been altered.
 
Valves are 5/16 Ferrea's. Seals are .313. Put on header evacs today. Ran it in the garage only. They are sucking nicely.

Gonna drive it a bit tonite and see if it cleans up..........(doubtful)

Weekend is gonna be tear off rockers and springs and have a look see!
 
After installing header evacs, still have oil pooling in the port. Took of rocker assembly and found that my seals look good, BUT my valves felt a little "wobbly"......I have a small 1/8 inch wide set of feeler gauges and can slide the .002 gauge down the guide right beside the valve, and the valve still able to move up and down.

I have no idea if this is ok or not. Seems like a lot of play to me.

If my guides are shot, is it possible for oil to get by a good valve seal?

Sorry for all the questions, but I'm still lost here....
 
The guides may be done. Typically the oem clearance is .001 to .003, but cannot be measured with feeler gauges. They are measured with micrometers; inside and outside and then computed. To say you slipped a feeler down the guide beside the stem, indicates the actual clearance may be quite a bit more than the gauge thickness, as the feeler gauge will not conform to the clearance space, and then there's the feeler aspect of feeler gauges. As in just how hard should it be to push/pull the valve against the drag of the feeler.These are not 4 inch pistons.
So,either procure the correct tools or sub the measuring out to a headshop.There is a good chance that the guides are less than the service limit, in which case it would be a judgement call, as to weather or not to replace them. But since the heads are already off(are they off?),and indicating signs of distress, hmmmm

To answer the question about oil getting by, The short answer is yes, as you have discovered.
Heres the test; Pick a guide and valve.Clean them with a no-residue solvent. If there is carbon on the back, leave it there but make sure it is rid of oil. Assemble them. Pull the valve over and secure it with something so that its not likely to move (like a small bungie-cord). Then put a few drops of very thin oil, like sewing machine oil on the stem, and leave it like that, for an hour or so. When you return look for the oil on the back of the valve head. If you don't see any, I would put more oil on and wait again.
The oil should, by capillary action, creep through the guide and be visible on the back of the valve. No oil means............ probably/possibly, a good seal. Remember, when the engine is running, it can put a pretty good pressure differential across that seal.
 
What do you mean the seals are .313"? Is this the spec, or some kind of measurement? They should be a bit smaller than the stem without a valve in them. .3125" is the nominal valve stem size. A .313" spec seal might be for an oversized valve stem.

With the issues you have, I would mic the valve stems top, middle and bottom to see if they are all close to .3125". Then flip the valve and try the feeler gauge in the bottom of the guide, in the port, to see if the guide is tapered. Regardless, a good seal can take care of oil with some guide/stem wobble..... but only so much.

This article has some info on the seals:
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/1998/07/valve-stem-seals-materials-and-designs/

One thing it notes is seal concentricity on the valve and guide.
 
If my guides are shot, is it possible for oil to get by a good valve seal?

What is meant by a good valve seal? See my prior post. If your guides have excessive clearance and your seal is a PC type, that is all Viton, why would you expect them to accommodate the lateral valve stem movement without wearing that seal out in short order?

Viton seals won't handle the lateral movement caused by excessive valve stem clearance IMO. But I said that before. Why not provide a picture of the seals you are using?
 
nm9
What am I missing? .3125 rounds to .313, being shorthand for the missing .0005
Yeah....I just wanted to know where that number came from.....just in case something is not quite right. An actual .313 spec?.... 'made to fit 5/16" '?....measured in some fashion?.... converted from 8mm?
 
OK guys, here's the seal I put on way back in March. Summits website says they are .313.

The actual 2 seals pictured are NOT the ones installed. They were used as "installation" tools. They were extras.

Like I said earlier, the ones on the car look ok. But I guess looks can be deceiving?

I can't have the guides checked reliably as the heads are still on the car.

Seems kinda odd that even with loose guides, oil can get past these seals. But I'm hoping that is the whole problem. I just can't bear the thought of pulling this engine again!
 

Attachments

  • valve1.jpg
    43.8 KB · Views: 199
  • valve2.jpg
    38 KB · Views: 195
OK, tnx; 5/16" should be right.

Product description is:
Metal Body Viton Seal for use with
Triple Spring (Total O.D. of .530")

Makes me wonder what diameter the guide bosses are cut to? It has to be pretty close and concentric for these. Easy to pull a spring and measure and inspect.
 
-
Back
Top