throttle valve cable geometry

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MoparPowa

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Hello fellow 3rd gen hemi swappers.

I have been researching the best way to attach a throttle valve cable for the 200-4R transmission I am running behind my 5.7 hemi. As I will be running a megasquirt based system, I will have to go to a cable throttle body. Pretty much every cable conversion hemi throttle body out there is $350+ without the TPS or AIC included. My current idea is to make an adapter plate to run a stock 80mm 3 bolt LS motor cable throttle body on the 5.7 hemi intake manifold, for which bowtie overdrives makes a kit under their EZTV name. Everything I read about these transmissions says that the geometry of the throttle valve cable is extremely important to the life of the transmission. This would allow me to ensure I have the proper geometry and be able to use a much cheaper cable throttle body. EFISource has also assured me they can build the hemi harness for the Gold Box megasquirt kit with the GM TPS and IAC connectors on it as they already build an LS kit.

EZTV kit - http://www.tvmadeez.com/ls1_cam/

My main questions are, does this sound feasible to you? How did you run your transmission linkage if you were using a front mount throttle body? Got a better idea?

Thanks for any and all help,
Ryan
 
totally feasible, and a good plan.

The original FAST XFI for the hemi uses a GM (LS) throttle body adapter and that is exactly how mine runs now (LS TB) so there should be a readily avail adapter. I actually have 2 winter projects along the same lines:

1. An old/tired '90 chevy truck that is getting a 5.3 LS motor and will need to control the 700r4 TV cable off the 80mm factory TB.

2. I just snagged a 200r4 for my 5.7 powered Dart, and am going to need to figure out that one as well.

I have read quite about about the TV stuff, and seen the TV made EZ product from bowtie overdrives.

Ive decided the TV made EZ is my backup plan for the truck, (due to cost of their stuff for my beater truck) so my goal is to weld my own tab/bracket to the TB or the truck, and then use that basic geometry to fab a TV bracket to the side of my FAST (aluminum) TB. I had to fab a throttle bracket for the car already just for cable drive throttle with my 727 kick down. Im hoping not to have to change much with it...

Here is a basic diagram of the correct geometry you need for the TV cable, and a few pics of "home-brew" brackets like you would need. A little leg work for sure, and some damn high school geometry, but much cheaper with simple tools...

just food for thought: my TB is a 92mm, and I was worried it would be too much for the 5.7... Its not at all, it runs like a top, and moves serious air, so if you can snag a larger LS TB, I would...

joe
 

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joeboy said:
totally feasible, and a good plan.

The original FAST XFI for the hemi uses a GM (LS) throttle body adapter and that is exactly how mine runs now (LS TB) so there should be a readily avail adapter. I actually have 2 winter projects along the same lines:

1. An old/tired '90 chevy truck that is getting a 5.3 LS motor and will need to control the 700r4 TV cable off the 80mm factory TB.

2. I just snagged a 200r4 for my 5.7 powered Dart, and am going to need to figure out that one as well.

I have read quite about about the TV stuff, and seen the TV made EZ product from bowtie overdrives.

Ive decided the TV made EZ is my backup plan for the truck, (due to cost of their stuff for my beater truck) so my goal is to weld my own tab/bracket to the TB or the truck, and then use that basic geometry to fab a TV bracket to the side of my FAST (aluminum) TB. I had to fab a throttle bracket for the car already just for cable drive throttle with my 727 kick down. Im hoping not to have to change much with it...

Here is a basic diagram of the correct geometry you need for the TV cable, and a few pics of "home-brew" brackets like you would need. A little leg work for sure, and some damn high school geometry, but much cheaper with simple tools...

just food for thought: my TB is a 92mm, and I was worried it would be too much for the 5.7... Its not at all, it runs like a top, and moves serious air, so if you can snag a larger LS TB, I would...

joe
Click to expand...

Joe,

Thanks for the response, I had really started to think this forum had died or something. Fast does have a bracket made by Comp to adapt their 92mm big mouth throttle body to a 5.7 hemi. In further research, I have noticed the 3 bolt style original LS1 throttle bodies have an IAC hole above the throttle port that meets up with a hole in the original LS1 manifold. Outside of somehow modifying the throttle body or the adapter plate to port that air back into the original throttle hole it would be impossible to run on the hemi. This leads back to just running the fast 92mm adapter and an aftermarket 92mm 4 bolt throttle body modified with my own bracketry for the throttle valve cable.

Cost is a bit of a wash between the two. I'd have to buy the throttle valve cable kit from Lokar regardless which is around $80, making the rest of the BTO kit worth $90 (to them). A stock throttle body with the IAC and TPS sensors is around $100 on ebay and I'd have to fab my own adapter plate. A total of around $270.

Whereas the fast adapter plate is $65, an ebay 92mm 4 bolt throttle body is around $100 with the TPS and IAC, and the lokar cable is $80 plus fabbing the bracketry. A total of around $245.

The majority of the aftermarket throttle bodies however use what appears to be an aluminum throttle cam, which would greatly complicate the bracketry fabrication and welding. It would however give me a bigger, better flowing throttle body with which the eventual cam and eagle intake possibly would make use of. Lots of ideas, I just want to be sure I don't spend thousands of dollars to have a transmission built and a cable is its downfall.

Ryan

65-440 said:
Just curious .... why not run the NAG1 that came behind the 5.7 ?
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The NAG1, to my knowledge, requires a multitude of wheel sensors, a factory computer and is also geared poorly for swap applications (exceptionally high (low numerically) rear gears in factory cars for highway mileage). Not to mention it's size not being conducive to fitting in my car, precisely why I went with the 200-4r.

Ryan
 
65-440 said:
Just curious .... why not run the NAG1 that came behind the 5.7 ?
Click to expand...

If he's too cheap to spend money on what he really needs, do you think he's gonna step up and run a NAG1? No way no how.
 
Yes it would take a little more work, and you can overcome any gearing issues with a lower rear gear ratio. The NAG1 trans might not be the budget swap, but it was behind the motor from the factory(unless the motor came from a truck) and is a damn good unit ! My buddy has a '67 Barracuda with a full 5.7L swap and is in the process of building a '72 scamp with a complete 6.4L / 6spd from a 2012 SRT challenger ...
 
65-440 said:
Yes it would take a little more work, and you can overcome any gearing issues with a lower rear gear ratio. The NAG1 trans might not be the budget swap, but it was behind the motor from the factory(unless the motor came from a truck) and is a damn good unit ! My buddy has a '67 Barracuda with a full 5.7L swap and is in the process of building a '72 scamp with a complete 6.4L / 6spd from a 2012 SRT challenger ...
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I never said there was anything wrong with the NAG1, I said it wasn't right for my application. I don't personally think it's the best transmission for swap applications, but yes, it can be made to work. Just like any other transmission can be made to work, it's all in what you're trying to accomplish. Firstly, I needed something very compact, the NAG1 just didn't fit the bill, making any other advantage irrelevant.
 
was just curious, that's all .... and no the NAG1 is def not the compact choice !
 
RustyRatRod said:
If he's too cheap to spend money on what he really needs, do you think he's gonna step up and run a NAG1? No way no how.
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As far as I know, the NAG-1 isn't even an option for the swap. I could be wrong but last I knew Nobody seems to have support for it. Like stated before you need to trick the transmission with sensors and stuff quite a bit with the factory ECU and there is NO aftermarket tune/control for it. There was a guy on here that tried with a 68 cuda and a SRT swap. He never got it to run/move last he posted a few yrs ago.


That's why everybody has used the 545rfe 2WD trans. I think that's the only way the factory ecu guys run a new trans. Which is also MASSIVE...
 
MoparPowa said:
Joe,

Thanks for the response, I had really started to think this forum had died or something. Fast does have a bracket made by Comp to adapt their 92mm big mouth throttle body to a 5.7 hemi. In further research, I have noticed the 3 bolt style original LS1 throttle bodies have an IAC hole above the throttle port that meets up with a hole in the original LS1 manifold. Outside of somehow modifying the throttle body or the adapter plate to port that air back into the original throttle hole it would be impossible to run on the hemi. This leads back to just running the fast 92mm adapter and an aftermarket 92mm 4 bolt throttle body modified with my own bracketry for the throttle valve cable.

Cost is a bit of a wash between the two. I'd have to buy the throttle valve cable kit from Lokar regardless which is around $80, making the rest of the BTO kit worth $90 (to them). A stock throttle body with the IAC and TPS sensors is around $100 on ebay and I'd have to fab my own adapter plate. A total of around $270.

Whereas the fast adapter plate is $65, an ebay 92mm 4 bolt throttle body is around $100 with the TPS and IAC, and the lokar cable is $80 plus fabbing the bracketry. A total of around $245.

The majority of the aftermarket throttle bodies however use what appears to be an aluminum throttle cam, which would greatly complicate the bracketry fabrication and welding. It would however give me a bigger, better flowing throttle body with which the eventual cam and eagle intake possibly would make use of. Lots of ideas, I just want to be sure I don't spend thousands of dollars to have a transmission built and a cable is its downfall.

Ryan



I'm not sure I understand the first part, my TB adapter from fast has the bolt patterns for both the 3 and 4 bolt throttle bodies and is made to run the GM sensors (IAC/TPS) with the Mopar manifold. That's how mine runs, all Mopar connectors and sensors except the TB has the GM stuff... I totally get the headache of steel vs alum throttle cam... I was just saying if there is a larger option than 80mm in a factory LS TB I would use that...

This is my current bracket with my 727 kickdown running to the lower half in a permanent hole...
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This is about how I plan to make mine work based on geometry with my current cable bracket and the holes already in the cam.
 

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65-440 said:
was just curious, that's all .... and no the NAG1 is def not the compact choice !
Click to expand...

Unfortunately none of the modern transmissions are a "compact choice" when you start comparing them to the early a-body tunnels and the 904/727 tailshaft.

joeboy said:
I'm not sure I understand the first part, my TB adapter from fast has the bolt patterns for both the 3 and 4 bolt throttle bodies and is made to run the GM sensors (IAC/TPS) with the Mopar manifold. That's how mine runs, all Mopar connectors and sensors except the TB has the GM stuff... I totally get the headache of steel vs alum throttle cam... I was just saying if there is a larger option than 80mm in a factory LS TB I would use that...

This is my current bracket with my 727 kickdown running to the lower half in a permanent hole...
Click to expand...

The first image below explains what I mean about the stock LS1 throttle body and how the IAC ports back into the manifold instead of down back into the throttle body. This is only true for 3 bolt LS throttle bodies so far as I know.

The second image is an adapter for a different application but you can of course see the slot on the adapter behind the throttle body where the IAC's airflow is redirected to go back into the main throttle port. Make any more sense?

The third picture shows the FAST 92mm hemi adapter plate. It does appear to have the bolt pattern for the 3 bolt LS throttle body. Does yours have a slot for the IAC port? If it does, it must be on the other side of it as I realize now it's upside down in the picture.

Like I said already though, I'm leaning towards using the FAST 92mm adapter with an Ebay LS throttle body and just fabbing up my own bracketry. If the FAST adapter plate does allow for a stock style 3 bolt though (IAC slot), I may just look for a ported 3 bolt design and use the BTO kit. It's good to have options.
 

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Thanks for the explanation and pics... Now it all makes sense! I pulled the intake tube off my dart to confirm your thought that the fast adapter doesn't have a groove or slot for the IAC.... So you could only bolt up a 3 bolt TB if you modify the TB.
I pulled the 3 bolt off my 5.3 and took a pic, it looks like you could easily use a dremel to open that IAC port down into the main intake without getting too close to the butterfly. The FAST one on my dart the hole doesn't seem to be bigger than 3/8...
 

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joeboy said:
Thanks for the explanation and pics... Now it all makes sense! I pulled the intake tube off my dart to confirm your thought that the fast adapter doesn't have a groove or slot for the IAC.... So you could only bolt up a 3 bolt TB if you modify the TB.
I pulled the 3 bolt off my 5.3 and took a pic, it looks like you could easily use a dremel to open that IAC port down into the main intake without getting too close to the butterfly. The FAST one on my dart the hole doesn't seem to be bigger than 3/8...
Click to expand...

That was one of my ideas, to grind a slot back into the throttle body. I'm still exploring all of the options but the FAST adapter with a 92mm ebay throttle body like this seems to be the cheapest, best performing solution. I really like the bracket you made for holding the cables on the manifold, I'll probably try to mimic that design to get the cables up higher over the manifold. How exactly did you attach the kickdown cable to the throttle cam?
 
My lokar kickdown cable came with the stud shown in the pic, the hole I used in the throttle cam was already there... I just put it in with a locknut on the back. It is barely long enough to grab the locking threads...

If you want additional pics or measurements of my throttle bracket lemme know.
 

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Additional pic from the front...
 

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joeboy said:
My lokar kickdown cable came with the stud shown in the pic, the hole I used in the throttle cam was already there... I just put it in with a locknut on the back. It is barely long enough to grab the locking threads...

If you want additional pics or measurements of my throttle bracket lemme know.
Click to expand...

joeboy said:
Additional pic from the front...
Click to expand...

Thanks Joe, I'll be saving these for later.

-Ryan
 
I just dropped by and saw this thread, you guys are really thinking this through. I tried the Megasquirt Pro on my 03 wired parallel to the OEM PCM a couple years ago and failed to make it work with the 545RFE trans and pulled it back off. Did find out a couple things while going through the install. First, the 5.7 does like the 90mm TB's. I first used a 90MM LSX Chinese junk from eBay and it did well after I made a home made IAC. Used a FAST adaptor plate to my truck manifold. Modified the adaptor plate and reused it when I install a BBK FBW 90mm TB after taking the Megasquirt off. Still in search for power without issues I installed a Martin Saine 46RH built transmission and I have had no problems. The most difficult part of the install was fabricating a TV cable. I read where a retro shop connected theirs to the 03 APPS box, but I had already added a cable to drive the manual TB during the Megasquirt install and just connected it there. So long story still long I recommend the 518/46RH not be discounted as a good trans to use behind our hemi's.
 
Redtruck-VA said:
I recommend the 518/46RH not be discounted as a good trans to use behind our hemi's.
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For some reason I assume this is not in an A body? If it is, though, what did you have to do with crossmember and floor?
 
67Dart273 said:
For some reason I assume this is not in an A body? If it is, though, what did you have to do with crossmember and floor?
Click to expand...

You have assumed correctly, it's a 03 Ram 1500 as listed in my signature. I originally joined the group because you guys are ahead of the game with Stand alone tuning and transmission swaps. The 46RH/A518 is basically a 727 with a OD unit attached and is a half of an inch shorter than the 545RFE and I simply elongated the mounting holes a little and the stock Ram RCSB driveshaft can be used without modifying. The trans bolts to the block and a 05 manual trans starter is needed along with something like the PATC special conversion flexplate. Any of the three speed shifter work, leaving only the TV cable to be fabricated. I bought a LOKAR TV cable and 10 feet of motorcycle clutch cable from eBay and fab'd the TV cable. Very easy swap. And the Ram cross member would be a good item to use with most any swap I would think. Good luck..
 
Redtruck-VA said:
I just dropped by and saw this thread, you guys are really thinking this through. I tried the Megasquirt Pro on my 03 wired parallel to the OEM PCM a couple years ago and failed to make it work with the 545RFE trans and pulled it back off. Did find out a couple things while going through the install. First, the 5.7 does like the 90mm TB's. I first used a 90MM LSX Chinese junk from eBay and it did well after I made a home made IAC. Used a FAST adaptor plate to my truck manifold. Modified the adaptor plate and reused it when I install a BBK FBW 90mm TB after taking the Megasquirt off. Still in search for power without issues I installed a Martin Saine 46RH built transmission and I have had no problems. The most difficult part of the install was fabricating a TV cable. I read where a retro shop connected theirs to the 03 APPS box, but I had already added a cable to drive the manual TB during the Megasquirt install and just connected it there. So long story still long I recommend the 518/46RH not be discounted as a good trans to use behind our hemi's.
Click to expand...

Redtruck-VA said:
You have assumed correctly, it's a 03 Ram 1500 as listed in my signature. I originally joined the group because you guys are ahead of the game with Stand alone tuning and transmission swaps. The 46RH/A518 is basically a 727 with a OD unit attached and is a half of an inch shorter than the 545RFE and I simply elongated the mounting holes a little and the stock Ram RCSB driveshaft can be used without modifying. The trans bolts to the block and a 05 manual trans starter is needed along with something like the PATC special conversion flexplate. Any of the three speed shifter work, leaving only the TV cable to be fabricated. I bought a LOKAR TV cable and 10 feet of motorcycle clutch cable from eBay and fab'd the TV cable. Very easy swap. And the Ram cross member would be a good item to use with most any swap I would think. Good luck..
Click to expand...

I've been accused of worse things, but yes, I am definitely thinking it through. Like I mentioned above, it would be a mighty shame to pay thousands of dollars for a well built transmission and have my linkage be the downfall. Your swap sounds quite interesting, you should post pictures of how you did your kickdown setup for the A-518.
 
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