Edelbrock head valve spring assembly

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Mtn Thunder

Mtn Thunder

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I'm changing valve springs on a set of edelbrock aluminum heads that had been assembled with the original steel shim against the head and an aftermarket shim with the grooves on the bottom on top of it. The grooves started wearing into the steel shims and I don't really need the aftermarkets as the spring pressures fall with in specs with out them.
My question is, did the edelbrock heads come assembled with just the steel shim beneath the spring separating the head and spring, or is there something else between the spring and shim?
 
After checking edelbrock's site, I found the locating cups that come standard on the heads. They were missing from these heads.
I ordered a set through Summit.
 
Our Edelbrocks came new with no cups under springs so they are not 'standard' to my knowledge; assembled head PN was 60779. I looked at these cups, but decided they were for heavier spring loads than the standard Edelbrock supplied springs.

The shims are a few thicknesses. The flat black ones under some of our springs are the thinnest and did not have any grooves. The thicker ones did have grooves. 4 intakes, all on the same head, had 2 shims (one thin black one and then a thicker silver or copper colored one), and the remaining 2 valves had just a single thicker one..... I presume selected at assembly to get the right installed spring height, which were all spot on with the installed shims.

Edit to add: If you read the instructions on some of the Edelbrock Performer heads, like for some SBC heads PN60899, they explicitly say that the spring cups come with those model heads. For the SBM heads, there is no mention of the spring cups as being part of the standard parts assembly from the factory. Not sure why.... the spring diameters and closed pressure are the same....perhaps a difference in material thickness under the spring seats? Or, it may have something to do with the stud mounted rockers on the Chevies, and keeping the spring from walking around the seats.

I can't say it would hurt to add the cups, but it will throw off the installed spring height so that will need to be somehow adjusted for with the .060" under-spring cup thickness, and you supposedly need to do some machining around the guide bosses to get them in, per the product description for the SBM heads:
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/mc/cylinder-heads/accessories.shtml
 
Mine just had shims. They were junk, as I found out cuz most had failed with in a year. Or perhaps I abused them by revving the berries out of that 292/509 and with 1.6 arms. Anyways I went to a Hughes cam with their springs and installed heights and a new set of shims. Problem solved.No cups from new.
 
So you were at .509" or .540"? Interesting that shims can be junk....what next? How did they 'fail'? I wanna keep an eye on them. We'll be at .504" actual on the exhaust and around .488" actual on intake with 1.6's but only 268 advertised and non-aggressive ramps. (Crane)
 
Yeah, you caught it. the 292/.509 with 1.6s is .543valve lift.
The shims were pounded out and came out looking, heavily-scratched, lightly-saucered. I mighta bin floating those valves. It's really hard to tell with .020 or less lifter preload. I mighta bin pushing the limits of the stock Eddie spec. But hey, I caught it and remedied it shortly after it began. That's what winter tear-downs are for right?
The following winter I caught a migrating wrist-pin bushing.
The next winter I caught the headgaskets trying to escape.
The next was a winner, no changes required.
You gotta love re-usable gaskets.

My current Hughes fast rate is an old HE3038. Specs are; 230/237/110/in at 106. the advertised is at .008, and is 276/286. The lift is .549/.571@1.6 It ain't that fast a rate; 276-230=46*. But they measure it at .008 whereas others measure at .006. But notice the lift for the duration. It's only the clearance ramps that are average. The lift/deg is quite good; .549/230=.00239(1.6s). I increased the spring pressure a tad over Hughes specs, in case I missed a shift. Or forgot to shift. Or just held it a lil long. That cam just pulls and pulls and pulls. I don't actually know where it quits cuz I usually pull the lil stick at 7000 to 7200. Mostly.I mean how often do you get to hear a 360 screaming at those Rs? I share it it with whoever might be listening. It's only 53mph in first! I haven't heard of a law that says I can't scream my engine as high as I want to or until it blows. And since the exhaust is louder than the tires..Ima hoping to get away without a ticket for that. And since at normal Rs the Dynomaxers are surprisingly quiet, I'm hoping about those as well. So far so good. 15years and ticket free. Well except for this one time, in year two I think it was. Oh wait, that was a fun summer, I think I got 2 that year. Ok so revised statement;10 to 12 years and ticket-free!
I love this cam, and the combo.
It's kinda like this one; http://www.hughesengines.com/Upload/TechArticles/land_dyno.jpg
http://www.hughesengines.com/TechArticles/11360dynotestfeb2000.php

Oh, yeah, those tickets? They had nothing to do with csreaming mufflers or screaming tires or a screaming engine. They had everything to do with screaming passengers, who were having a blast, that they will never forget. I just wish I woulda picked a better spot. Cop said;" You know you can't do that here, right? But you do it pretty good."
 
My edelbrock heads had the same shim. No cups. I had cups installed when my machinist set up the heads.
 
DO they stop people in Manitoba for speeding? Geez, I thought that was the Canadian wild west...LOL

OK, AJ's springs are on the heavier side if they are heavier than the Hughes for that size of cam. We're a good 15-20% lower on pressures.... but we'll be inspecting for the PRW rockers wearing so well add shims to the list.
 
Springs move around. Over time they will burrow into the head material. Pretty much any aluminum head should have steel cups under the springs.
 
I got some cups, free to anyone who will use them. Edel 5769 cups for SBM/Ford/pancho//GM/olds. $28 at Jeggs, free on FABO.
 
Well, glad this thread came up. I called Edelbrock and spoke with Tech Support, and they said that they have not shipped these heads without the spring cups for 10 years.......I had some news for them! Ours were bought in July of this year..... no cups..... Hope the pockets are machined for them, as they are supposed to be. I see a bit more head work in my future.....deciding if I want to PM Pishta or to send head receipt to Edelebrock for the shims.

Thanks, guys.
 
nm9stheham said:
Our Edelbrocks came new with no cups under springs so they are not 'standard' to my knowledge; assembled head PN was 60779. I looked at these cups, but decided they were for heavier spring loads than the standard Edelbrock supplied springs.

The shims are a few thicknesses. The flat black ones under some of our springs are the thinnest and did not have any grooves. The thicker ones did have grooves. 4 intakes, all on the same head, had 2 shims (one thin black one and then a thicker silver or copper colored one), and the remaining 2 valves had just a single thicker one..... I presume selected at assembly to get the right installed spring height, which were all spot on with the installed shims.

Edit to add: If you read the instructions on some of the Edelbrock Performer heads, like for some SBC heads PN60899, they explicitly say that the spring cups come with those model heads. For the SBM heads, there is no mention of the spring cups as being part of the standard parts assembly from the factory. Not sure why.... the spring diameters and closed pressure are the same....perhaps a difference in material thickness under the spring seats? Or, it may have something to do with the stud mounted rockers on the Chevies, and keeping the spring from walking around the seats.

I can't say it would hurt to add the cups, but it will throw off the installed spring height so that will need to be somehow adjusted for with the .060" under-spring cup thickness, and you supposedly need to do some machining around the guide bosses to get them in, per the product description for the SBM heads:
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/mc/cylinder-heads/accessories.shtml
Click to expand...

I don't understand how installed spring height can be altered by the spacers.
I can see it affecting spring seat pressure though, or installed length.
Isn't spring height determined by the valve seat and stem length?

Am I misunderstanding something there?
Asking because I don't know.
 
Well, since these are under the springs, they effect installed spring height because they set the bottom of the spring relative to the retainer. If the bottom moves up, and the top stays fixed as determined by the valve and seat and retainer and keepers, the installed spring height changes. The installed spring height is the actual length of the spring installed.

For example, if we put these .060" cups in place of an installed .040" shim, the installed spring height will shorten by the .020" difference.
 
nm9stheham said:
Well, since these are under the springs, they effect installed spring height because they set the bottom of the spring relative to the retainer. If the bottom moves up, and the top stays fixed as determined by the valve and seat and retainer and keepers, the installed spring height changes. The installed spring height is the actual length of the spring installed.

For example, if we put these .060" cups in place of an installed .040" shim, the installed spring height will shorten by the .020" difference.
Click to expand...

That was the answer I wasn't sure about how it was worded and what it actually meant.
So the installed spring height is directly related to adjusting the seat pressures.

Thank you
 
Getting back to the OPs question
this is how I see it;
Those thin shims siting on the aluminum are not strong enough to survive the spring pressure. The thick ones are. And the thin ones were an attempt to prevent the grooved ones from eating the head. Together they work. Either one alone will not. Best solution is the cups.
I just can't see a little extra pressure(less installed height)on a mild lift cam being a problem. I have a mild cam(230*). With the extra pressure, she revs to 7200plus. And since the combo is still pulling up there, I go there a lot.Stock 340 cams were done early back in the day. Mostly because they went into pump-up. They still had life after 5500.
OP, Since you ordered the cups, make 'em fit and sleep well, knowing they will protect your heads while working towards achieving the required installed height.
 
AJ/FormS said:
I just can't see a little extra pressure(less installed height)on a mild lift cam being a problem.
Click to expand...
I was thinking through all that last night, AJ, and may come to pretty much the same conclusion. Some quick calcs this AM shows that the standard springs that come on these heads are 327 lbs per inch, and a .030" change is 10 lbs increase in closed seat pressure from 120 to 130 lbs, and the same 10 lb change in open pressure. So agreed: should not be any real issue, IMO when the detaisl are examined. And, I can't see it adversely effecting the max advertised lift limit of .575".

BTW, the standard Edelbrock springs for this head bind at .670" from standard installed spring height; that will decrease, but should still not be a big issue since max lift limit advertised for these heads OOTB is .575". You would have to float the valves .060" or so over the max advertised lift limit to get to coil bind.... hence your comment on 'mild cam' .... which we don't know in the OP's case.

BTW, my theory today on why our heads came without the cups, and only shims in the .030" to .050" range, is likely due to a factory machining situation. The installed spring heights are right on spec, so either the valve seats were not set deeply enough or the spring pockets not machined deeply enough to allow the .060" thick cups to be installed. Since the pockets can be referenced to the bottom head surface and 'ought' to be easy to get right, I tend to think the casting was such that the valve seats did not set in quite deeply enough. We noticed some core shift in the exhaust ports and have read another online comment in intake port core shift, so combustion chamber core shift is not out of the question.

Well, that is the theory..... and I feel it beats the Edelbrock theory that 'someone shipped the heads to a customer, the customer removed the cups, and then sent them back to the seller's warehouse' .....riiiight.
 
got 8 set of eddy heads...all came with shims not cups..

also usually the spring height is way off on the stock heads....
 
And now Edlebrock has formally replied by email that:

"After talking to my manager he informed me that the #60779 head does ship out with only shims they do not include spring cups "

The tech (Edward) who sent this was a different one than the first guy (Ron) who said they had not shipped any of these heads without spring cups in 10 years.... I gave both of them the head PN..... #-o
 
Since the skinny shims that came on my Eddies, couldn't survive my 292/509(543@1.6) cam, Ima thinkin,they (the springs and seat-shims) were just not up to the task that they were rated to.
When I put the Hughes HE2430 in,( .538/549lift@1.6), I swapped to their springs and specs.
Later when I swapped in the HE3038,(.549/.571@1.6),now the current cam I just threw some extra shimmage in there, since I had the headroom as to coilbind. I didn't even bother to measure.Call me lazy,call me foolhardy,call me anything you like, just don't call me late to dinner... They been in there for 10 years now, and about 100,000miles. Never been apart since.
 
AJ, were the original shims very thin, like .020" thick, and were they single shims? I ask, because, to keep the springs from digging downward into the AL seats, it really should not matter if the cups or shims are used, as long as they are a similar hardness of steel, that is thick enough to resist any localized bending or flexing of the shims.

An yes, the cups can manage sideways movement of the spring base better..... as long as they are properly fitted.
 
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