Help me please tryin to beef up 318

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nm9stheham said:
The OP has only $800-1000 to work with and realistically 5 months maximum. He needs suggestions that will help him in this budget and time frame. This is limiting and will put him on a path that is likely to be suboptimal if he were starting from scratch and going for max HP, but it is what it is. He has his whole life to do it again and better, and ANY build will be good learning!
- Other heads are out unless it is the 302's but he has the 360 heads already bought
- Magnum conversion is very probably out due to the budget limits
- New pistons are out due to budget and time, so getting to a higher CR is only going to happen if he moves over to the 302 heads or shaves the 360 heads
- Not likely going to be able to do a new torque converter on this budget to support other mods. So high revving, large duration cams are out.
- He MIGHT be able to change rear gears IF he has the support from his grandpa or someone else to get it done cheaply; he does not have the budget to have it professionally done. better valve springs go hand in hand with a higher rear gear, so that is a cost of the higher rear gear; the 2 together can buy a lot.
- SureGrip is probably out due to budget unless he just gets lucky shopping around. With out this, going too high on the rear gear is a mistake as it will just be spinning all over the place. But it WILL do great burnouts on one side! Keep the rear gear in the moderate range.
- Being the 'fastest in the parking lot' depends....not necessarily going to happen on this budget. And 300 HP is likely out of the budget here. So just be aware of that, OP.

OP do you have someone to help you do a rear gear change? That can buy you a lot for the $$ IF it can be done by you and your grandpa in his shop. (Which I am assuming he has.) Do you know the rear gear ratio in your car now?

OP, do you have any access to other heads like the 302 heads? Do you have any decent junkyards around? (And we are not talking about Ford or Chevy 302 heads but small block Mopar 302 heads!)

I can see a coupla paths that I would do here:
1) 302 heads if he can find some cheap and sell off the 360 heads. Get a high quality multi-angle valve job with a deep angle cut right under the seats to open them up there. If he is skilled enough and so inclined, he can do some basic porting with some help. This will be a better CR combo and keep the rear gear if it is not too low, and a moderate cam. This makes it a lower RPM, better torque engine, and should work OK with the stock TC. Use a moderate cam like the Voodoo 262 duration with new dual valve springs. Throw in a rear gear in the 3.55 range if that is in the budget and scope of abilities.
2) Use the 360 heads with the same good valve work, and mill them maybe .050-.060" with a matching cut on the intake side. Will help the CR and get the cc's down in the mid 60's range. Make up for the larger ports with 256 duration, gobs 'o torque type of cam. (Like the Crower Baja Beast.) Keep the stock TC. The larger intake and headers will do a lot more than people think to make up for the lower duration cam on the high RPM's. But he will need better valve springs for any higher RPM's. Do the rear gear if in the budget and scope.

OP, with either option above, the tuning for ignition timing is critical. It is tedious but is critical and very important to do.

OP, since you will be using a flat tappet cam for budget reasons, it is 100% important for you to read up on using the proper break-in oils and procedures and the oils you use for regular running. The proper levels of Zinc additives need to be there.

Best of luck with this!
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The problem with the small port 302 heads is they crack. They also only flow 170 CFM, so you are only gaining compression. The rest is pretty good.
 
What's wrong with good old fashion cam, headers and high rise, I know I pointed out this build a few times but I think it should point out to a lot of 318 people that decent power levels are a few mods away without spending a fortune. 650 carb plus headers plus a comps xe262h is said to make 282 hp with a stock low CR long block 318. No reason to tear into the long block. Add shift kit, gears, tires and little work to the suspension and you'll have a fun little car.
Down the road if looking for more slap on a set of EQ or similar air gap 750 and larger cam. Which get you in line for the next step put together 360 short block transfer the top end from the 318. Put the old 318 top end back on and sale it for some money back or keep it to swap in if you plan on keep going up in levels with the 360.
Not everything has to be done on day one, one mod week, month, year what ever you can afford and time for
Exhaust and gears would be my early on my list.
 
So this is a manual trans car? What gear ratio in the 8.75? The 360 heads can really talk on a 4 speed. Between 302 swirl ports and the 915 J heads my 318 pulled harder on top with the J heads. A good distributor curve job, an X or H pipe and proper carb tuning.
 
66fs said:
Stock 318 head chambers are 68 cc while .040 milled 360 head chambers are 65 cc. I fail to see where the drop in compression occurs. The 360 intake ports flow 190 to 200 cfm up from about 170 cfm for a 318. I would not mill any more than .040 and you mill the intake side of the head, not the intake manifold.

You remove .0048 from the head surface to subtract 1 cc from the chamber on 340 / 360 heads. Chrysler Racing manual and from my experience is dead on.

If you are not changing heads why bother changing head gaskets? Just use the Performer intake, 4 barrel carb, cam, lifters, valve springs, and tune that rascal in. Add Dual exhaust and be done. Maybe a 3.21 or 3.55 gears. One thing at a time so he does not get overwhelmed.
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That's the spec in the book from Chrysler, yes. They always CC on the large side.

Ok. That's enough for me. Stick a fork in me. I am done.
 
okay well today iam going to take some pictures and get numbers off the car what numbers would you like and where can I find them?
 
Just my 2 cents worth, sell the 360 heads, "pulls stronger on the top", sure but how often will your car see 5-6 k RPM? how often will it see spirited launches? Need to get 302 OR 714 casting heads. The 302 refers to the last three numbers of the casting number, the 714 is the only three numbers on the casting number. Will get you better low end torque. BTW, RRR is a very smart engine guy. He advised me on my teener and it runs real well. Just saying....
 
Mopar Tim said:
Just my 2 cents worth, sell the 360 heads, "pulls stronger on the top", sure but how often will your car see 5-6 k RPM? how often will it see spirited launches? Need to get 302 OR 714 casting heads. The 302 refers to the last three numbers of the casting number, the 714 is the only three numbers on the casting number. Will get you better low end torque. BTW, RRR is a very smart engine guy. He advised me on my teener and it runs real well. Just saying....
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How about forget the heads altogether he only wants to beat a 5.0l, plus 302 are a waste of.money they can be made to work with porting but stock offer little there's literally no power jump when chrysler switch to roller and 302's unlike the magnum which basically the same short block as a roller 318. Save that for a future upgrade.
 
273 said:
How about forget the heads altogether he only wants to beat a 5.0l, plus 302 are a waste of.money they can be made to work with porting but stock offer little there's literally no power jump when chrysler switch to roller and 302's unlike the magnum which basically the same short block as a roller 318. Save that for a future upgrade.
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When I switched from the 273 heads, to a set of 714, 302, heads, I did the swap without moving the dizzy. When I went to start for the first time, all the rest of the setup was the same, just diff heads. I had to change my initial timing because of kickback on starter. Obviously more compression. More compression=more power potential.
 
Mopar Tim said:
When I switched from the 273 heads, to a set of 714, 302, heads, I did the swap without moving the dizzy. When I went to start for the first time, all the rest of the setup was the same, just diff heads. I had to change my initial timing because of kickback on starter. Obviously more compression. More compression=more power potential.
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I'm just saying for dollars spent it not the most bang for the buck and cause of the small ports still chokes the engine from making real power numbers.
1 point of CR gives you about 4% hp return for the effort on a dead stock 318 is about 5-6 hp and one with cam, headers and 4bbl 10-12 hp and 302 give you about an 1/2 a point of CR. Since most ain't gonna port there heads which make one of the magnum heads the way to go.
 
You know the best solution is a bone stock 2bbl BB-A/T, out of anything. This neatly sidesteps the rear gear and TC issue. All you will need is some brand new sticky tires, steelies, and a traction aider. Oh yeah let's not forget the exhaust, and schumacher mounts. Let's see that adds up to about $1300 plus the BB. Poop!
 
73schwinger said:
what gears should I get? or what would you recommend
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This is my recommendation, from what you have now is a stock 2bbl 318, with a 4-speed and 8.75 gear, correct?
What gears are in the car now?
Low budget.
Put the intake and carb you have on now, it will work.
Duel exhaust.

Gears, depend on do you drive back road 2-lanes, or interstate?
2-lanes I like 4.30 quick and zappy throttle response.
Interstate 3.23, keeps the revs down and gives somewhat decent gas mileage.
 
73schwinger said:
okay well today iam going to take some pictures and get numbers off the car what numbers would you like and where can I find them?
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If you want to grab the casting number off the engine block look on the drivers side near the rear of the engine. Rear end casting numbers might be helpful as well. If it is an 8 3/4 rear the casting number will end in either 741, 742, or 489. A '73 Dart never came with an 8 3/4 though so there's no telling what you've got especially when the word "custom" gets thrown around.

If you want to figure out what gears you have, look for a tag on the rear end with a gear ratio stamped on it. It should be on one of the bolts on the center section. If there's no tag, jack the rear end up so the tires are off the ground, put the transmission in neutral, and spin the tires 10 times. Count how many times the driveshaft goes round 'n round for every one time the tire goes full circle. If the driveshaft spins 32 times you've probably got 3.23's, if it spins 35 times you've got 3.55's, etc. It's not too hard to figure out. Your other option is to count the teeth on the ring and pinion but that's the hard route to go. Lol.

What transmission do you have? You say four speed. Auto or manual? It makes all the difference. Casting numbers would help here and so would pictures.

You've got some time to plan this all out so figure out the parts that are already on the car and it'll be easier to figure things out from there. The first step of getting where you want to go is to know where you already are, yeah? Pictures help too, the more the better.

I graduated HS in 2013 and worked on my car a lot through high school. It took me until freshman year of college to finally drop a V8 in it. The 318 I built was pretty mild and it was fairly peppy. It could have used some deeper gears than the 3.21's I have in my 8 1/4. I had a '68 318, stock bottom end, 901-16 valve springs with otherwise stock heads, a Comp HE268 cam, true roller timing chain, Melling Std. vol oil pump, Clevite bearings, Edelbrock Performer intake, 600CFM Edelbrock 1405 carb, 1/2" carb spacer, Hooker Headers, and had Flowmasters dumped at the axle. It ran pretty good for what it was.

I think you could build it up to take on a 5.0 depending on what year the Mustang is. Those Mustangs can be pretty quick but a hopped up 318 could give it a run for it's money I think. If you are still slower than him after doing some upgrades over the winter......nitrous.... :burnout:
 
Half this thread makes me want to :banghead:


You have most of the ingredients for a decent build just use those and grab an appropriate camshaft. your barely out any money and you will be done by prom.

Build a 360 or something down the road and drive your car while your building it.
 
SirDan said:
Half this thread makes me want to :banghead:


You have most of the ingredients for a decent build just use those and grab an appropriate camshaft. your barely out any money and you will be done by prom.

Build a 360 or something down the road and drive your car while your building it.
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Exactly where I was goin, but got run over by a freight train.
 
I am not the master of all that is MOPAR or even the Apprentice of all that is the 'Teen'.
Now that is out of the way and many of you already know I am a rookie at best.
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My 'Teen'
'76 block that is shaved .020"
'85 360 heads that are shaved .020" with 2.02 and 1.60 SS valves.
KB 167-030 Hyp pistons
Comp Cam XE268h w/ Comp lifters, springs, pushrods, and retainers.
Eddy 1405 carb with 1" spacer bought from FABO member.
Eddy RPM A/G
White HEI bought from FABO member.
Hookers with 2.5" Flowmasters out back.
904 Trans with a B&M kit.
8.25 with a 3.55 SG.

I don't know my compression ratio.
I don't know my HP or TQ numbers.
I don't know my head flow either.
Only numbers I do know are:
155-162 psi - That is my last compression test (dry)
13.34 sec - Best 1/4 I have run in it.
104.2 mph - Speed at the line during the Best run.

I would put it against just about any 5.0 running around my neck of the woods.
Pulls hard to about 6k and probably would do more if I asked.
And, is the funnest car I have ever owned. (have had some fun ones, don't get me wrong)
All of this to say,
A fun 5.0 Destroyer can be had pretty cheap.
Most of my mods are bolt on. I understand the heads, decks, and pistons are not but the others are and don't take a rocket doctor to install.
With some smart shopping on this site and a little patience while you wait to find the items you need, 14.*** sec's should not be too hard or expensive to achieve.

But,
I am not an expert in anything, just a middle aged guy (46 back on the 11th) who bought a '75 Dart and started making it what I wanted.
That last part is the important thing.
Sorry for the rambling.
 
okay so what would be the consequences of me putting the 360 heads on with a really thin gasket?
from the 650 carb performance intake plus the cam and headers im getting would i have a chance against that 5.0?
sorry if im just running around in circles and if it means anything to anybody onces i graduate college and have started my career im going to pull the 318 and probably put in a big block
 
Per #68
With no other changes; your car will slow down. From idle to 4500 it will be slower. And since your cam is long done by then , it will be slower after that too.
It will seem faster from about 3500 to 4500, only because it was so much slower, from idle to 3500. I can tell you that from personal experience. That was with a factory 340-AVS top end on a stock 73short block, 340log manifolds, and dual exhaust.
You would get better results putting the teener 2bbl top, on a 340 short block. Done that too!

Others might tell you different. But until you put that combo in a C-body, it's hard to tell. Cuz with about 1000 pounds less to pull, in an A-body, things happen faster..
I tell you what; take your car out on the highway . Drive it in second at a speed higher than can be kicked down into first. Keep it in Second and roll into it. Have a chubby buddy with you holding a stopwatch. When you hit 2700 or so,nail it.If the tranny kicks down, start the test from a higher rpm.But always start from that new rpm, and give it about 100 rpm to stabilize before starting the timer. When the tack crosses about 2800 start the timer. Shut the timer off when you hit 4500.Shift to Drive and pull over. Repeat 2 more times and average it.Write all the data down. I guarantee if you don't write it down, you will/may forget, and not have a proper basis of comparison.
If you don't have a tach, use the speedo. Time it from 50 to 80mph, still keeping it in second, or 55 to 85 if it kicks down early..
Go back to the garage. Bolt the big-port heads on, and the same top back on. Retest thrice and average it. Use the same buddy, and the same road, and the same directions.
The stopwatch won't lie. Prove me wrong. You won't hurt my feelings.
 
-Cheapest way to go quicker( can't say you'll be quicker than that Ford guy), is to put some gears in it (big gears)and some valve springs on it, so you can stretch it out, And lose 200pounds off the chassis somewhere.If it won't spin, you need a TC. If it spins you need a SG. If it still spins, you need tires. If it still spins a traction aider. If your gears are too big, stop the race before the engine blows up. If it won't stay in the selected gear long enough, you need a shift kit.
You see how that goes? $500 + $500+ $500 +$500 +$500 +$500, and we are still not into the engine.
-You can put that same $3000 into the engine, and try to push it through the peg-leg pizza cutters, but until the rear is up to speed, it won't be significantly quicker in first . Sure it will trap better , but the 5.0 will be long gone. The vast majority of street races are won in first gear from the start-line to 40/50 mph. Whoever loses there is playing catch up after that, and unless he has a lot more power, it ain't gonna happen.
-The other side of that same story is to put the money into the engine, but never start a race at a speed that will get you more than a tiny bit of wheelspin.Just try and talk the Ford-boy into that though!


Part of the reason those 5.0 foxs are quick with M/Ts is cuz they have 5 gears, and a decent factory rear suspension, that works with it.. It's a tough design to beat, especially on a budget..
-I would never start a race from a dead stop, with my S. I know with the 2.0 to 2.4 60ft that my S hits, the race will be over before it starts. I can't even hardly start in first gear cuz the engine blows through the 295s, or even the 325s,all the way to redline. That won't be your problem though, or at least it shouldn't be. As for me, I like it. Nothing beats nailing it at 35mph, and lighting them up! Unless maybe you have a BB and can do it at 45 or 55. But by then it's getting dangerous.

look what just came up, right here on FABO;
For Sale Running 360 engine. http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=331102
 
73schwinger said:
okay so what would be the consequences of me putting the 360 heads on with a really thin gasket?
from the 650 carb performance intake plus the cam and headers im getting would i have a chance against that 5.0?
sorry if im just running around in circles and if it means anything to anybody onces i graduate college and have started my career im going to pull the 318 and probably put in a big block
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If I was stuck with this choice, here is how I would try to make the best of it: Based on working through the numbers, if you got a low duration, moderate lift cam like the Lunati Voodoo 10200700, install it with 2 more degrees cam advance than how it comes ground, AND shave the 360 heads by .050" with that reeeeally thin head gasket, you will be a little bit better off for compression ratio than with the stock 318. So that won't make the low end torque any worse, and the cam and heads and other added parts on the intake and exhaust will breathe better in the mid range and upper RPM. At least you will have more lift than stock to use some of the breathing of the other parts. Try to afford that good multi angle valve job.

Not a world beater by an means but should be better and funner. And it will work with your stock TC and get good gas mileage. And I would not even bother if the 360 heads were not shaved .050":pukel: I would stick with the 318 heads in that case, and maybe look at 1 step up in cam. In that case, though to top end will be more restricted.

Any idea what rear gear ratio you have?

BTW, 2 degrees added cam advance is a simple woodruff key change on the cam snout, BTW.

6 to 7 years to that big block will be a loooong time. Good luck with it....!
 
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