click...click...click... DAMMIT!

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emydemon

emydemon

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Got stuck while running errands in my daily driver yesterday. It's been 24hrs and I'm already dying to get it back on the road. Maybe my FABO peeps can help:

Car: 72 Demon

Engine: -'72 340 very recent pro rebuild to stock specs w/650 edelbrock carb
-stock intake & exhaust manifolds
-full size starter, new alternator, 1-2yr old battery, new voltage reg, original ECU (orange box)
-wiring in engine compartment 90% new, rest of the car is 90% original

Until yesterday: Car drove/ran awesome! Sometimes a little slow to start when warm (wah wah wah wah wah wah vroom), but I assumed it's bc the carb is running a bit rich. Cold starts were immediate until yesterday.

What had happened was: Ran errands with normal operation until it wouldn't start in the coffee shop parking lot. Turn the key, click click click click, no starter engagement. Let the car cool off... then the same crap. Figured out if I turn the key off & twist to run 5-6 times in a row, car starts and runs like normal.

Got it back to the home shop, cleaned the terminals/cables, battery tested a bit low. Put it on a trickle charger all night, no change. Click click click... starts after 5-6 key twists then runs just fine. "Alternator" gauge shows charging at around 1K rpm.

Note: doubt it's related, but I had the exhaust updated to 2.5" pipes (H) with 40 series flowmasters just a few days ago.Took all the dash components out...sat for a few months...then reinstalled 2 weeks ago (car started/drove just fine without it lol). Everything that worked before, worked after reinstall.

Starter solenoid? Starter relay? Ignition control switch? Wire connections? This evening I'm going to test err'ything, but would like your thoughts.

Sorry about the long post, but details help :)
 
emydemon said:
Got stuck while running errands in my daily driver yesterday. It's been 24hrs and I'm already dying to get it back on the road. Maybe my FABO peeps can help:

Car: 72 Demon

Engine: -'72 340 very recent pro rebuild to stock specs w/650 edelbrock carb
-stock intake & exhaust manifolds
-full size starter, new alternator, 1-2yr old battery, new voltage reg, original ECU (orange box)
-wiring in engine compartment 90% new, rest of the car is 90% original

Until yesterday: Car drove/ran awesome! Sometimes a little slow to start when warm (wah wah wah wah wah wah vroom), but I assumed it's bc the carb is running a bit rich. Cold starts were immediate until yesterday.

What had happened was: Ran errands with normal operation until it wouldn't start in the coffee shop parking lot. Turn the key, click click click click, no starter engagement. Let the car cool off... then the same crap. Figured out if I turn the key off & twist to run 5-6 times in a row, car starts and runs like normal.

Got it back to the home shop, cleaned the terminals/cables, battery tested a bit low. Put it on a trickle charger all night, no change. Click click click... starts after 5-6 key twists then runs just fine. "Alternator" gauge shows charging at around 1K rpm.

Note: doubt it's related, but I had the exhaust updated to 2.5" pipes (H) with 40 series flowmasters just a few days ago.Took all the dash components out...sat for a few months...then reinstalled 2 weeks ago (car started/drove just fine without it lol). Everything that worked before, worked after reinstall.

Starter solenoid? Starter relay? Ignition control switch? Wire connections? This evening I'm going to test err'ything, but would like your thoughts.

Sorry about the long post, but details help :)
Click to expand...

I'm not Electrical Guru, but here is where I would start:

1. Take the wire (usually yellow) that goes from the ignition switch harness to the starter relay on the inner fenderwell. Put a test light or voltmeter there. Turn the key to "run" You should have 12 volts there. If you do then the key is telling the relay to send power to the starter. I would then check for power on your starter cable going to the starter.

2. I know that when I replaced my ignition harness, I had intermediate starting and it turns out that the connector from the ignition harness to the car harness was loose. So I just zip tied the connectors to hold it tight together. I'm sure Del will chime in.
 
Could be the starter solenid contacts are pitted. Classic redneck fix is to rap starter w/ a hammer. Get a mini-starter from a Magnum V-8 (1988-2000? truck).
 
plumkrazee70 said:
I'm not Electrical Guru, but here is where I would start:

1. Take the wire (usually yellow) that goes from the ignition switch harness to the starter relay on the inner fenderwell. Put a test light or voltmeter there. Turn the key to "run" You should have 12 volts there. If you do then the key is telling the relay to send power to the starter. I would then check for power on your starter cable going to the starter.

2. I know that when I replaced my ignition harness, I had intermediate starting and it turns out that the connector from the ignition harness to the car harness was loose. So I just zip tied the connectors to hold it tight together. I'm sure Del will chime in.
Click to expand...

Thanks! I'll head out to the shop and give that a try.
 
BillGrissom said:
Could be the starter solenid contacts are pitted. Classic redneck fix is to rap starter w/ a hammer. Get a mini-starter from a Magnum V-8 (1988-2000? truck).
Click to expand...

I was thinking that too. Didn't have any tools in the car (shame on me), so I tried beating on it with my cell phone. Not my finest moment. Phone is ok, but burnt the crap out of my hand on the exhaust manifold...which would be a much better story if it had been headers.

There's a u-pullit yard near me. Would it be worth grabbing a mini starter out of a 90's Dakota/Ram? It's $10 vs $80-100 (depending on the Advance Auto coupon code).
 
emydemon said:
I was thinking that too. Didn't have any tools in the car (shame on me), so I tried beating on it with my cell phone. Not my finest moment. Phone is ok, but burnt the crap out of my hand on the exhaust manifold...which would be a much better story if it had been headers.

There's a u-pullit yard near me. Would it be worth grabbing a mini starter out of a 90's Dakota/Ram? It's $10 vs $80-100 (depending on the Advance Auto coupon code).
Click to expand...

Yes. I purchased one new, but they are worth it. Much smaller and if you get headers they clear much better.
 
Not clear to me if you

A....Hold the key and get "one" click each time you twist the key to start or

B....Hold the key and get a "string" of clickey, buzzy, noise

If A, bad starter relay or bad solenoid, or maybe bad battery connection right at "big" starter terminal

If B, bad battery, bad cable or dirty / loose terminal or connection.

"Learn" to do roadside troubleshooting

"Learn" to jumper the starter relay AND the starter

To do that make sure the car is safely in park / neutral, and jumper across the starter relay two largest, exposed terminals. This should cause the engine to crank.

If it a "buzzes" or gives a continuous clickety--clickety, bad battery, cables, terminals

If you get one click, reach down and wiggle the big battery cable at the starter and try again.

If no joy, jumper across the two starter terminals. Again, should crank. If not, you need to get out the wrenches.

Sometimes banging on a starter will shake things loose in an emergency, that is "no" fix.
 
It is worth getting a mini starter. I always loved the sound of the old gear reduction starter, but when mine started acting up I pulled one off a mid 90's 1500 pickup at the local pick and pull. I think they wanted $21 plus a $6 core charge.

The starter I pulled had the plug in solenoid wire but a quick connector install and I was cranking! It's amazing how quickly that little thing cranks!
 
Bah. Volt metres. Y'all work too hard. Use a screwdriver or wrench to jump across the starter lead and the solenoid lead on the starter relay. If it cranks consistently using this sparky, sparky method, the relay is toast. If not, it's probably the starter.

Don't do this if your car has fuel leaks.
 
Rainy Day Auto said:
yup ...right here ^^^ before turning a wrench ....check the terminals
Click to expand...

X2 positive and negative cables at BOTH ends clean and tight?

Starter

What he describes is classic starter fail symptoms.
(especially if he smacks it with a hammer and it works again):D

I took one down one day to have them test it for a warrantee replacement and the guy dropped it on the way over to the test bench, and of course it tested good (to them anyway) so they wouldn't give me a new one.
Kinda peed me off because I knew for a fact it was bad, and why it worked for them after they dropped it.
It quit again the next day and I finally got the new one, and when I explained about dropping it they looked at me like a deer in the headlights.
 
Have you verified the reluctor gap in the distributor? .007"-.008" with a brass feeler gauge...
 
TrailBeast said:
Uh,,,,Nevermind.:D
Click to expand...

This may not be his problem, but I want to bring it up as I had a warm start problem once with an electronic distributor that I bought new and never checked. It was at .030" and would sometimes not start warm. After finding the reluctor gap so far out, then adjusting it, my problem went away...

Don't assume that your new electronic distributor is set correctly "from the factory".... (in the kit)...
 
inertia said:
It's a common prob on the old gear-reduction starters, requires a "stud and contact" package. cheap, but the old starters can be challenging to put back together..

See pic, paragraph 10.

http://www.allpar.com/history/mopar/electrical3-starters.html

Getting results from smacking it with a hammer usually indicates worn/sticky brushes

I'd put a mini starter in it.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link! I'll go through my old starter and keep it on the shelf.
 
The way you describe sounds just like a bad starter solenoid. Grab a modern starter for sure! I got a used one for 30 bucks since at the time I really couldn't afford to spend 130 on a new one made by a reputable brand name.

Works like a hot damn! those old style ones are only good for boat anchors after using one of these new ones.
 
SirDan said:
The way you describe sounds just like a bad starter solenoid. Grab a modern starter for sure! I got a used one for 30 bucks since at the time I really couldn't afford to spend 130 on a new one made by a reputable brand name.

Works like a hot damn! those old style ones are only good for boat anchors after using one of these new ones.
Click to expand...

The click click thing IS the solenoid (usually) but the motor isn't turning when the solenoid is engaging power to it.
That is if it clicks once per try of the key and not a bunch of clicks per one try of the key anyway.

I agree on the newer starters.
They just kick butt.
 
:prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer:

First of all, major thanks to all who responded. I got quick answers/help/details. The Demon is back on the road and I'm feeling quite proud of myself. :burnout: I took my phone into the shop, scrolled through every response and tried everything y'all suggested. Long a** post here, but wanted to thank everyone individually and this was easier than quoting.

PlumKrazee70, I got out the tester and tested err'ything. Took your advice on the mini starter, bought a new one.

BillGrissom, Thanks for the tip and giving me a specific year range for the mini starter. There was actually a noticable price difference in early 90's to late 90's starters (I use Advance because I'm a coupon ninja).

67dart, That post was very helpful. It was one click per key twist, I should have mentioned that. It turned out to be the solenoid. You're absolutely right about roadside trouble shooting and jumping the starter/starter relay.

I found this great article: http://www.moparaction.com/Tech/archive/roadside.html

I had an old starter off a 76 440 laying around, so we had some fun jumping it.
View attachment starter.jpg

66fyssh, I already miss the old sound :) My dad used to say my mom sounded like a mopar starter haha. The difference is worth it, though. Holy crap, that mini starter is amazing! Great note on the plug in solenoid wire. I made sure the one I bought had the nut-style posts.

jos51700, sparky is right! And I won't always have a voltmeter laying around, so thanks.

1970Duster, I checked it out. It's fine, but keeping an eye on it since it's clearly as old as the car.

Rainy and Breadburner, That was the first thing I tried. I was hoping that would be the problem since it's the cheapest to fix :)

Trailbeast, Yep, cables all clean at both ends. Those parts guys can be helpful and mildly retarded too. I had one try to sell me a Holley carb rebuild kit for the Edelbrock 750cfm we were rebuilding. He said "All carbs are the same" in the most condescending tone possible. I'm blonde, not stupid.

inertia, the link didn't work so I searched allpar. Great article! Here's the working url: http://www.allpar.com/history/mopar/electrical3-starters.html Didn't need the old starter for a core (had another extra one), so I'm going to repair it for fun. Mini starter installed. It rocks!

Krazykuda, turned out to be the solenoid, but you have a point. I did some searching about it and you were right. Pretty interesting articles. I think my husband spent an hour reading up on it. Thanks!

SirDan, you nailed it.

So... thank you to everyone for making my first project so much fun.
 
Here's some additional on solenoids. I don't know if this holds true on mini-starters or not, but it's true of older 'wound field' Mopar and GM style starters.

The solenoid has TWO windings. A light duty "hold in" winding, and a heavy duty huge hi current "pull in" winding

What is important here is that the "pull in" winding is wired IN SERIES with the motor of the starter. What this means is, that if the starter proper has an electrical problem, the symptom will show up as "a bad solenoid." In this case it will not pull in.

In your case, the problem was likely bad contacts in the solenoid. In the GM solenoids, it used to be common to pull them apart and 'turn the washer' around (the contacts washer) to freshen up the contact for a bit longer.
 
The newer mini starters have a plunger with a spring that gets pulled down when you hit key and makes contact with 2 terminals to turn the starter motor over. I was getting the click...click with my used mini starter after 15 years of service. It took longer to get the starter out than it did to replace $11 worth of parts, works like new again. The starter motor themselves seem to last forever.

http://www.lewea1.com/Starter-Solen...o-Dynasty-Intrepid-Ram-Shadow-Spirit-Stratus/
 
exactly what Mr. gtsdude said.... anyone with a Nippondenso starter that runs in into the "click" when the key is turned, you can get a plunger and contact kit off of Ebay for usually less than $10 to your door. I bought a bag of contacts years ago and have done more starters on diesel trucks than I care to think about. Great upsell... makes me money, saves the customer a buttload of money!
 
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