Radiators: Is 22" enough for 400 HP?

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(1) Marginally was a poor choice of words - 200 is the max that I've seen. -- (2) a) Not just water - water plus additives like -- Red Line Water Wetter -- Lucas Super Coolant -- Royal Purple Ice and others provide lubricant, rust inhibitors etc. -- b) -- Boiling temp is not a concern of mine - for me anything over 212 is a problem. -- (3) My Radiator was made by a local Radiator Shop. -- The Radiator Shop Guy is big on 2 rows with 1" tubes vs. 3 rows of 5/8" tubes. -- All of this works for me - just my 2 cents.

this might blow your mind but back in my gasser days late fiftys we would put brake fluid in the radiator to prevent rust and no it would not make your water pump stop:finga:
 
I've got a Champion 3 row in my Dart with a big block, 400+ hp, and it cools just fine on 90* days with no shroud. It was inexpensive, well made, and fits well.

One reason I didn't go with the 26" was because of all the cutting necessary to the radiator support in order to let the extra 4 inches of radiator see any airflow.
 
The 3 row's disadvantage is that the 3rd row is not as effective as the the 1st 2 rows at low speeds and idle, since the air temp is higher by the time it reaches the 3rd row.

Aren't you going to have this same problem no matter how many rows you have? Even in a hypothetical 1 row core, isn't the engine side of the tube/core always going to be hotter because of the heat picked up by the air as it moves through the core?
 
Aren't you going to have this same problem no matter how many rows you have? Even in a hypothetical 1 row core, isn't the engine side of the tube/core always going to be hotter because of the heat picked up by the air as it moves through the core?
Yes, but the deeper you go, the less and less effective the added rows get. The 10th row on a 10 row unit probably won't do anything LOL
 
Yes, but the deeper you go, the less and less effective the added rows get. The 10th row on a 10 row unit probably won't do anything LOL

This assumes you are adding rows of equal depth. My point was that a 3 row, 2" core should cool better than a 2 row, 2" core because of the added surface area of the rows themselves, while both cores should experience the same loss of efficiency at the same depth into the core, regardless of the number of rows.
 
This assumes you are adding rows of equal depth. My point was that a 3 row, 2" core should cool better than a 2 row, 2" core because of the added surface area of the rows themselves, while both cores should experience the same loss of efficiency at the same depth into the core, regardless of the number of rows.
Yeah I would buy into that....!
 
Do you happen to have a picture of the stock shroud on the Champion radiator???
Here you go..... the Mopar PN is 2998324 for the shroud; not sure what it is off of... the PO got it. The corners have been hacked out some for the upper hose and down low on the opposite corner for a remote oil filter (not visible). There are some holes in the edge 'strips' of the rad that we enlarged, and put tinnerman nuts there, and just the right length of screws to hold it in place.
 

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Here you go..... the Mopar PN is 2998324 for the shroud; not sure what it is off of... the PO got it. The corners have been hacked out some for the upper hose and down low on the opposite corner for a remote oil filter (not visible). There are some holes in the edge 'strips' of the rad that we enlarged, and put tinnerman nuts there, and just the right length of screws to hold it in place.

That actually looks pretty good! That's a slant 6 shroud flipped over. Are you using the trans cooler in the radiator? I'm curious if the fittings are blocked by the lower curved portion of the shroud.

Also, how tight is the shroud with the top and bottom tanks?
 
The cooling required depends on driving conditions. If you stay down in the LA Basin flat-lands, you should be fine. Manufacturer's test new cars for worst-case, which many use the I-5 N climb out of the LA Basin at 70 mph when 115 F at Lake Hughes as the litmus test. In the first warm Spring days, you see a vehicle pulled over every 1/2 mi w/ hood open, usually gomers who didn't check their coolant level all winter. Ditto for the I-15 E climb. Many fairly new cars in the bunch, and those aluminum heads warp easy.
 
That actually looks pretty good! That's a slant 6 shroud flipped over. Are you using the trans cooler in the radiator? I'm curious if the fittings are blocked by the lower curved portion of the shroud.

Also, how tight is the shroud with the top and bottom tanks?
OK, thanks for that info on the shroud type. The gaps are maybe 1/8" top and I think the same at the bottom. And yes the in-rad trans cooler is being used; the shroud is fully clear above those. As said, the PO got this; we just improved the mounting.

The fan is not centered in the shroud; it is set towards the top of the shroud opening. But I never think that effects much; the draw problem is mainly through any gaps between shroud and rad along the sides.

BTW, we are going to change the belts.... the double belts over the water pump pulley and then AC compressor puts the slack side of those belts pulling on the water pump and fan pulley, which makes them slip really easy and they need to be tightened way too much. So we will change the water pump to drive with the alternator off a single belt and direct drive the AC compressor alone. We'll probably go to a 15% underdrive crank pulley; when get to revving to 6k or more, things are just gonna be spinning too fast.
 
OK, thanks for that info on the shroud type. The gaps are maybe 1/8" top and I think the same at the bottom. And yes the in-rad trans cooler is being used; the shroud is fully clear above those. As said, the PO got this; we just improved the mounting.

The fan is not centered in the shroud; it is set towards the top of the shroud opening. But I never think that effects much; the draw problem is mainly through any gaps

That's nice that the shroud is so close to the tanks. I've ended up cutting up my factory shroud for hose clearance and adding some strips of aluminum to get it as close to the radiator as possible. Sucks because it's a one year only 67 V8 shroud, but oh well... Do you happen to remember which Champion radiator you bought (cc526, CC2375, etc)? It seems like the one I bought has the shroud mounting surface a lot farther away from the core as seen in the picture. The one in your picture seems close to the core.

526-500x500.jpg
 
So, since nobody asked, I will!! What is the core support made for??? If it's only a 22" opening, a 26" radiator will do no good unless you cut your radiator support to allow the entire radiator to have air flow! Unless it's a car you don't mind cutting, you can and will find a 22" radiator that handles 403hp no problem!! I believe my brother is running a 22" radiator in his 69 Dart with a 416 that's pumping out well over 400hp, no problems in the cooling dept that I've heard!!
 
That's nice that the shroud is so close to the tanks. I've ended up cutting up my factory shroud for hose clearance and adding some strips of aluminum to get it as close to the radiator as possible. Sucks because it's a one year only 67 V8 shroud, but oh well... Do you happen to remember which Champion radiator you bought (cc526, CC2375, etc)? It seems like the one I bought has the shroud mounting surface a lot farther away from the core as seen in the picture. The one in your picture seems close to the core.
No, the PO bought it and we don't have a purchase receipt for it, and I have not tried to ID it. Yes, there is not much space to the core on those sides, we had to be careful with the drilling and with the screw lengths.

Merry X-mas!
 
No, the PO bought it and we don't have a purchase receipt for it, and I have not tried to ID it. Yes, there is not much space to the core on those sides, we had to be careful with the drilling and with the screw lengths.

Merry X-mas!

Thanks. Merry X-mas.
 
So, since nobody asked, I will!! What is the core support made for??? If it's only a 22" opening, a 26" radiator will do no good unless you cut your radiator support to allow the entire radiator to have air flow! Unless it's a car you don't mind cutting, you can and will find a 22" radiator that handles 403hp no problem!! I believe my brother is running a 22" radiator in his 69 Dart with a 416 that's pumping out well over 400hp, no problems in the cooling dept that I've heard!!

The opening is 22 inches but I disagree with your statement. Even if I don't open it up to 26 inches, the extra water capacity isn't a bad thing.

As far as finding a radiator that is 22 inches, this Griffin radiator for a Camaro seems to have the right dimensions for what I need.

gri-8-00009_ml.jpg


http://www.summitracing.com/parts/gri-8-00009

The price isn't so bad either. The 1.25 inch tubes should keep it cool I think. I just wish Griffin had schematics of where the hole locations are so I can see if they line up with the holes on the support, otherwise I'd have to drill new ones. I called Griffin and the tech guy said they didn't have that information.

There's another Griffin radiator that seems similar. Don't know the difference between the two.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/gri-8-00016
 
The opening is 22 inches but I disagree with your statement. Even if I don't open it up to 26 inches, the extra water capacity isn't a bad thing.

Going from a factory 22" to a Champion 3 row 26" I had to add an extra gallon.
 
The opening is 22 inches but I disagree with your statement. Even if I don't open it up to 26 inches, the extra water capacity isn't a bad thing.

As far as finding a radiator that is 22 inches, this Griffin radiator for a Camaro seems to have the right dimensions for what I need.

gri-8-00009_ml.jpg


http://www.summitracing.com/parts/gri-8-00009

The price isn't so bad either. The 1.25 inch tubes should keep it cool I think. I just wish Griffin had schematics of where the hole locations are so I can see if they line up with the holes on the support, otherwise I'd have to drill new ones. I called Griffin and the tech guy said they didn't have that information.

There's another Griffin radiator that seems similar. Don't know the difference between the two.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/gri-8-00016
Interesting... the extra water capacity of a 26" wide rad will be there to absorb transient temperature increases, but will hardly cool any better for long term heat loads from the engine if there is no the air flow over the extra 4".

I noticed that the 2nd Griffin PN posted does not have a bung for a drain petcock, and the brackets are a bit different. Neither has a trans cooler.
 
Airflow is one thing, but I tend to think increased suface area to dissapate heat along with the added coolant capacity still ads up to a positive effect. Maybe not 100% optimum, but still better than the stock 22" 2 core.

Maybe I should cut out an inch around my core support, and while I'm at it switch to a standard grill with less restrictive fins, or just remove the grill entirely. Maybe I'm not an engineer, but I think we are splitting hairs here.
 
It is positive only as much as there is airflow across or around the extra area. Almost all of the heat from a rad is from the fins and tubes, and they for sure need air flow as their cooling surfaces are >95% within the interior of the core, not on the exterior surface. The only other way for heat to get out is by radiation, and on a shiney AL rad surface that is very low! (BTW, the old rads were painted for protection and flat black is an excellent radiation surface....)

Not trying to be contrary at all but 4" is an 18% cooling increase... that ain't hay! Just some thoughts that might help you:
1) If cutting the core support is not good, then if there was room, then maybe space the rad 3/4" or more back from the core support, and seal up the edges and top and bottom between rad and core support. It would be kinda like a shroud in reverse with reasonable turns for the air to enter the 2 extra inches of core on each side.
2) If that is not possible, event taking a 1" to 1.5" hole saw and putting extra holes along the edges of the rad opening in the core support may help a lot.
 
Good arguments, like I said, not an engineer, so it's just a hypothetical for me, and never been afraid of learning something . All I'm saying is even in a 22" opening, a 26" seems like it would cool better than a 22", all things considered.
 
Not trying to be contrary at all but 4" is an 18% cooling increase... that ain't hay! Just some thoughts that might help you:

2) If that is not possible, event taking a 1" to 1.5" hole saw and putting extra holes along the edges of the rad opening in the core support may help a lot.

The hole saw idea for some reason sounds more appealing than cutting out the section of core support.

Anyway, I ended up purchasing a 26 inch 2 core radiator with 1 inch tubes. One reason for this is so I can do the Ford Contour fan mod. Seems to fit best on the 26 inch radiator.

I should have more pics up tomorrow. Today I worked on replacing my fuel sender.
 
im lookimg at running a 22x19 triple flow afco rad on my 1500hp hemi turbo setup and street car with drag week on the list to do.

the more you can get air across the fluid to cool it the smaller the rad can be physically. the radiator is capable of 600hp worth of cooling. which is about what my engine will make n/a and street driving without boost. the rad is around 200 bucks. have to have it modified for the triple flow but that doesnt cost hardly anything at all to the cost., but i dont have the part number in front of me.
 
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