Continuity check....

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inkjunkie

inkjunkie

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Lost power to our well house on Sunday. One leg of the breaker box had 120v, the other 85 or so. Initially I thought a gopher may have chewed the wires. Last night our electric water heater went out...strangely it is back on now. Checked it's power last night, mimicked the well house. 120v on each side of the breaker in the main box. 120v & 80v down stream. The water heater is,hooked to the main panel, fed in an above ground conduit so I know nothing chewed thru it. Blah blah blah...onto my question. The ends of the power feed to the pump house are 150' apart. Want to check for continuity. Can I...disconnect wires from main box (already disconnected at the sub)...tie any given two wires together in the well house and connect an ohm meter to the main box end to check those 2 particular wires? Make sense? Sorta fuzzy this morning...
 
Sure, you sound like you are completely isolating the wire run, making a loop, and checking end to end

Your initial description doesn't sound like wire??? You lost me as to where you are losing it.......voltage that is.

Maybe detail "the chain" of the layout.

"Some boxes" have bad troubles where the breakers clip into the buss in the back of the box. When I worked in HVAC, one of the bosses kids had a nearly new double wide home, "all electric." I think it was the dryer started giving trouble. Brand new home, new "cheap" box. Terrible quality.

Years and years ago, "Pacific" (Federal Pacific) something boxes had terrible trouble, and should have all been recalled. Awful stuff. There are still some of those around.

Here's an article on Federal Pacific and Zinsco boxes. The photo illustrates exactly what happened with "the boss's kid."

http://www.ncwhomeinspections.com/arcing+on+zinsco+panels

-2S0XZ7bmfo2WG65yAsgmy4gS9xoZ6MQ1VJMyzlG0vqeX1HPqWbomfZQC4YeguN46r_hGeU5vfYVZkH6TcuTmG1qdPZUWckfbdwf5WvvO8nRQ0krnD_FrNn_Z9rF_cK_0g


A breaker used to live here. The quality is poor, the contacts got loose, and arced against the buss
 
67Dart273 said:
Sure, you sound like you are completely isolating the wire run, making a loop, and checking end to end

Your initial description doesn't sound like wire??? You lost me as to where you are losing it.......voltage that is.

Maybe detail "the chain" of the layout.

"Some boxes" have bad troubles where the breakers clip into the buss in the back of the box. When I worked in HVAC, one of the bosses kids had a nearly new double wide home, "all electric." I think it was the dryer started giving trouble. Brand new home, new "cheap" box. Terrible quality.

Years and years ago, "Pacific" (Federal Pacific) something boxes had terrible trouble, and should have all been recalled. Awful stuff. There are still some of those around.

Here's an article on Federal Pacific and Zinsco boxes. The photo illustrates exactly what happened with "the boss's kid."

http://www.ncwhomeinspections.com/arcing+on+zinsco+panels

-2S0XZ7bmfo2WG65yAsgmy4gS9xoZ6MQ1VJMyzlG0vqeX1HPqWbomfZQC4YeguN46r_hGeU5vfYVZkH6TcuTmG1qdPZUWckfbdwf5WvvO8nRQ0krnD_FrNn_Z9rF_cK_0g


A breaker used to live here. The quality is poor, the contacts got loose, and arced against the buss
Click to expand...
To much typing for my phone....will get on my laptop later with a detailed explanation.
I did disconnect the power feed to the pump house. Put a jumper wire between the 2 120v lines. Checked for continuity in the pump house....nothing. Whenever one particular 120v line was tied into another line on one end and continuity checked on the other I got nothing...

Will explain in detail later today...
 
Nothing runs on continuity. I would test for voltage on the affected circuits with the load device powered up. I am not real clear on what you are testing where and how. Are the well pump and water heater running on 120 volts or 240 volts?

You should have two power feeds and one neutral coming into the main breaker box. Start by ensuring you have the proper power between each leg of the power feed to the neutral. The neutral is the return circuit to the generating plant so it is just as important as the power leg. Work your way down each circuit to the load device while checking voltage, one step at a time.

If the voltage loss is the same at the water heater in the house as it is at the well house, that would lead one to believe the fault lies in the house.
 
When I discovered a similar problem at my wife's old house, it turned out that the weather head had the neutral wire corroded out. This caused a floating neutral that would not feed 120 volts to either leg unless the load on both legs was about balanced. When checking the voltage on one leg, turn on something that is plugged into that leg and see if the voltage drops. If so, then plug a similar load into a circuit on the other leg and then see what effect it has on the voltage again. If the voltage keeps changing up or down, then you likely have lost the neutral leg from the pole to your main box, likely near the weather head.
 
I'm gonna toss Ink and Rusty into a bag and shake 'em up. Rob is fighting a problem with his shop wiring, and it sounds like a neutral or bad leg problem, maybe the buried cable. Maybe.
 
Rustedwrench said:
Nothing runs on continuity. I would test for voltage on the affected circuits with the load device powered up. I am not real clear on what you are testing where and how. Are the well pump and water heater running on 120 volts or 240 volts?

You should have two power feeds and one neutral coming into the main breaker box. Start by ensuring you have the proper power between each leg of the power feed to the neutral. The neutral is the return circuit to the generating plant so it is just as important as the power leg. Work your way down each circuit to the load device while checking voltage, one step at a time.

If the voltage loss is the same at the water heater in the house as it is at the well house, that would lead one to believe the fault lies in the house.
Click to expand...

I KNOW nothing runs on continuity...but how else does one check for a broken wire??
 
67Dart273 said:
Sure, you sound like you are completely isolating the wire run, making a loop, and checking end to end

Your initial description doesn't sound like wire??? You lost me as to where you are losing it.......voltage that is.

Maybe detail "the chain" of the layout.

"Some boxes" have bad troubles where the breakers clip into the buss in the back of the box. When I worked in HVAC, one of the bosses kids had a nearly new double wide home, "all electric." I think it was the dryer started giving trouble. Brand new home, new "cheap" box. Terrible quality.

Years and years ago, "Pacific" (Federal Pacific) something boxes had terrible trouble, and should have all been recalled. Awful stuff. There are still some of those around.

Here's an article on Federal Pacific and Zinsco boxes. The photo illustrates exactly what happened with "the boss's kid."

http://www.ncwhomeinspections.com/arcing+on+zinsco+panels

-2S0XZ7bmfo2WG65yAsgmy4gS9xoZ6MQ1VJMyzlG0vqeX1HPqWbomfZQC4YeguN46r_hGeU5vfYVZkH6TcuTmG1qdPZUWckfbdwf5WvvO8nRQ0krnD_FrNn_Z9rF_cK_0g


A breaker used to live here. The quality is poor, the contacts got loose, and arced against the buss
Click to expand...
Sorry for the delay....
Easter Sunday we woke to no water. We have a "pump house" where our pressure tank is located. Inside this shed there is also a sub panel....which is wired to a 50 amp breaker on our house box. Checked the breaker in the main panel, was not tripped. Checked the 20 amp breaker that supplies power to the well pump control box, it was not tripped. Hmmm......
Took one of my meters and checked each side of the 2 pole breaker in the main box...checked them to ground. Each had 120v, give or take a few. Not uncommon for us to actually have 110v-130v...we are only a few miles from the Long Lake dam...but that is another issue...
Checked the 2 pole 20 amp breaker that feeds the pump control box. Checked each side to ground. One leg had 120v...other leg had any place from 40v-85v....hmmm.....
I disconnected the 4 wires running from the main panel to the well pump sub panel. I also disconnected them at the sub panel. I took a jumper wire, at the main panel side and jumped the common wire to the ground wire. Checked them in the pump house, they both had continuity. I removed the jumper from the common wire and connected it to one of the wires that I removed form the breaker. So now the ground wire was connected, thru this jumper wire, to one of the wires that was removed from the breaker. Checked at the pump house side, still shower continuity. I then took the jumper wire and attached it to both of the 120v lines that were on the breaker in the main panel, this time got no continuity on the other (pump house) side. So I appear to have a broken wire under ground, correct?
All of the underground electrical was done when I was not here. While I paid for all underground electrical to be put into conduit I don't think it was. The reason I am saying this is I recently installed a 400 amp service on my garage. It previously was hooked to a 90 amp break on the house panel. When I was digging the trench I found the feed wires going to the garage...they were not in conduit. And then there is the fact that "direct burial type" of wire was used...for both the garage and well house.
Hope I supplied enough information......
 
inkjunkie said:
I KNOW nothing runs on continuity...but how else does one check for a broken wire??
Click to expand...
A broken wire will not carry any voltage. A damaged or loose wire may show voltage unloaded but not carry any current (amperage). If the battery cable in your car was damaged and all but one strand of wire was broken it would show continuity but it certainly will not carry the amperage load to crank the engine.

You responded to 67Dart273 that you are checking between each power feed and ground, correct? If so, you need to check between each power feed and neutral. As I stated, the neutral is the return path for the current. The ground is only a local equipment ground to prevent any stray voltage from being on the chassis of the unit being powered. It may be that your power distribution panel has the neutral tied to ground, as many are. The problem there is that in the case of a failed or faulty neutral the power has to return to the generating plant through the ground, which is clearly not efficient.

If I understand your other post correctly, it does indeed sound like you have one power feed that is faulty, since you showed continuity on the ground, the neutral and one power feed line, but that does not explain how or why you had a problem in the house at the water heater and now you do not. Very odd.
 
We can argue this until the cows come home. You can even check continuity "the dangerous way" with a 120V light bulb.

Or if you are "not so dangerously" suited, use a battery and the biggest 12V bulb you can find......stop lamp or fog/ head lamp

I would start by.........

isolating all connections on both ends of the wire

Check each conductor "to ground" meaning "real" ground.......the grounding wire, not neutral. Also check neutral to ground

This will prove that there are no leaks 'to ground'

Also, check each wire to all the others, to prove there are no shorts to other conductors. This again, is will all (8?) connections open, unconnected (ground, neutral, hot and hot)

then twist any two together. This can be the two hot, or a hot and neutral. Check continuity.

Using a 120V or 12V bulb will get some current through there and hopefully show that the conductor isn't broken/ damaged, and just "touching" down there

Last I would do a resistance check between any two, one pair at a time. All/ any combo should show about the same......very low.......resistance.
 
Rustedwrench said:
A broken wire will not carry any voltage. A damaged or loose wire may show voltage unloaded but not carry any current (amperage). If the battery cable in your car was damaged and all but one strand of wire was broken it would show continuity but it certainly will not carry the amperage load to crank the engine.

You responded to 67Dart273 that you are checking between each power feed and ground, correct? If so, you need to check between each power feed and neutral. As I stated, the neutral is the return path for the current. The ground is only a local equipment ground to prevent any stray voltage from being on the chassis of the unit being powered. It may be that your power distribution panel has the neutral tied to ground, as many are. The problem there is that in the case of a failed or faulty neutral the power has to return to the generating plant through the ground, which is clearly not efficient.

If I understand your other post correctly, it does indeed sound like you have one power feed that is faulty, since you showed continuity on the ground, the neutral and one power feed line, but that does not explain how or why you had a problem in the house at the water heater and now you do not. Very odd.
Click to expand...
Forgot to mention the water heater, sorry about that. I had the water heater wired into a timer. Have had this timer since AZ. Was in use down there for 10 or so years. Used it to control 6 1000 watt grow lights when I was growing...anyhow, removed this timer and the water heater problem appears to have been resolved. So I am assuming that the timer contacts were the culprit. Once the wind dies down I am going to reconnect the well house underground feed wires and check for power between each power feed and the neutral. I am pretty sure I already have but want to verify this prior to digging...just in case.
Mr. Murphy has me in his grip lately.....and because of it I am a bit overwhelmed with it all. Hell, I tore the light wires put of my trailer last I used it. Lights were shot so I ordered another tail light kit. Just to give you an idea of how badlyrics Mr. Murphy is shadowing me. I ordered a light kit with the longer harness, don't remember how long it is. Well, one set of tail light wires is several feet to long....other side is several feet short....hey...look at that....it is after 12....I can start drinking....
 
Del, apologies....didn't see your post.
Wind & rain died down some. Water heater problem looks like it was the timer.
Bit more info on the pump house. Where the sub panel is connected to the main...both the pump houses common and ground are on the same buss. The pump house also has a ground rod next to it.

All of the following were measured at the pump house sub panel.

Common to ground....0 volts.
Left power to common 0 volts
Left power to the ground bus 0 volts
Right power to common 120v
Right power to ground bus 120v

I checked the main panel...
One power leg to the bus where the common & ground wires are connected 120v
Other power leg to same spot 120v

Have a buddy that is an electrian. He has explained why the common and ground on a sub panel are hooked to the same bus more times than I can count. Just can't seem to comprehend it.

Probably should add that all of this passed inspection about 10 years back...
 
the bounded ground is against code in California.
He has explained why the common and ground on a sub panel are hooked to the same bus more times than I can count. Just can't seem to comprehend it.
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I'm shakey on the ground bit. ...................
Sure sounds like you have a buried wire problem.
 
67Dart273 said:
I'm shakey on the ground bit. ...................
Sure sounds like you have a buried wire problem.
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It does to me as well. I wish I was there, could get it worked out real quick:banghead:
 
Mopar Tim said:
It does to me as well. I wish I was there, could get it worked out real quick:banghead:
Click to expand...

No disrespect....we are less than a half mile from Long Lake/Lake Spokane/Spokane River....we have a boat load of rocks so anything that requires digging goes slowly.....couple that with 4 dogs...have to put up 350' or so of temporary fence.....already have had 1 pup with a broken leg, don't need another one...Quick just ain't gonna happen
 
You know what you could do, and you didn't hear it from me; is to isolate the bad wire(both ends) and put it aside. Then run power up the neutral wire, and hook that to the pumphouse panel in it's stead. This is essentially replacing one black or red wire with a white wire.Finally ensure the ground rod is hooked to the pumphouse panel chassis-ground. The 220v pump doesn't need a neutral, but anything in the pump house that requires 110, will now run off whichever wire it is hooked to just fine, using the "earth a a neutral loop back to the main panel where it used to be hooked to the neutral bus, years ago, anyway.If not it will still work, as long as the ground rod at the pumphouse is well-connected to the ground. And no, you won't get a shock by walking over near to the ground rod. Before we had the government meddling in our lives, this was common practice. I guess they have stock in a copper mine somewhere.This will get you by until you can wire it properly.Remember; you didn't hear this from me....lol.
Go look at your power-cable coming into your house. Count the conductors. I bet you can't count more than two! Those would each be 110s.
 
AJ/FormS said:
You know what you could do, and you didn't hear it from me; is to isolate the bad wire(both ends) and put it aside. Then run power up the neutral wire, and hook that to the pumphouse panel in it's stead. This is essentially replacing one black or red wire with a white wire.Finally ensure the ground rod is hooked to the pumphouse panel chassis-ground. The 220v pump doesn't need a neutral, but anything in the pump house that requires 110, will now run off whichever wire it is hooked to just fine, using the "earth a a neutral loop back to the main panel where it is used to be hooked to the neutral bus, years ago, anyway.If not it will still work, as long as the ground rod at the pumphouse is well-connected to the ground. And no, you won't get a shock by walking over near to the ground rod. Before we had the government meddling in our lives, this was common practice. I guess they have stock in a copper mine somewhere.This will get you by until you can wire it properly.Remember; you didn't hear this from me....lol.
Go look at your power-cable coming into your house. Count the conductors. I bet you can't count more than two! Those would each be 110s.
Click to expand...

This is what is going to happen... Thanks...
 
Ernestina just caught the dogs,playing with a dead gopher.....
 
So much for THAT idea....power feeds are 2Ga, Ground is a 4 and common is a 6.
 
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