Should I ladder bar or 4 link

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duster1970

duster1970

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I have heard so many arguments on what is better and I nave noticed on the different threads I have look through many of you have a ladder bar set up. So help me decide. I am going to have to do something this winter. My 60 foots are consistent now but I am planning on putting more power to it next year. Thus the upgrade. What do some of you recommend?
 
If you are willing to learn and that is a big IF and IF you are willing to tune, the 4 link is quicker, faster, smoother and much more tuneable that a ladder bar.

Me personally I would never use another ladder bar. But you have to understand instant centers, how the IC works with shocks and how the 2 step affects it all.

I say 4 link and learn.
 
duster1970 said:
I have heard so many arguments on what is better and I nave noticed on the different threads I have look through many of you have a ladder bar set up. So help me decide. I am going to have to do something this winter. My 60 foots are consistent now but I am planning on putting more power to it next year. Thus the upgrade. What do some of you recommend?
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all valid points. personally, i 4 linked my car ( 68 dart) many years ago. all things considered i would say ladder bar. as a very general condition until you are going low nines or high 8,s or faster a ladder bar is a simple and very reliable/ repeatable rear suspension. i spent many years tuning and reading all the various chassis books available. most all have you make adjustments for cars that are way lighter and or more horsepower than i had then or now. for an average bracket car, mine, you want a car to dead hook and it takes work and tuning to get a 4 link there. a ladder bar just flat works till you get so much power that dead hooking starts causing problems. hope this helps
 
Eds Dart said:
all valid points. personally, i 4 linked my car ( 68 dart) many years ago. all things considered i would say ladder bar. as a very general condition until you are going low nines or high 8,s or faster a ladder bar is a simple and very reliable/ repeatable rear suspension. i spent many years tuning and reading all the various chassis books available. most all have you make adjustments for cars that are way lighter and or more horsepower than i had then or now. for an average bracket car, mine, you want a car to dead hook and it takes work and tuning to get a 4 link there. a ladder bar just flat works till you get so much power that dead hooking starts causing problems. hope this helps
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A ladder bar has 3 (THREE) instant center adjustment and all are the same distance forward from the axle centerline. I find it difficult to believe that 3 short instant centers is perfect even for heavier, slower cars.

The more horsepower, the longer and lower the IC wants to be. Pretty hard to get a 108/4 IC with a ladder bar. In fact, it's impossible.
 
yellow rose said:
A ladder bar has 3 (THREE) instant center adjustment and all are the same distance forward from the axle centerline. I find it difficult to believe that 3 short instant centers is perfect even for heavier, slower cars.

The more horsepower, the longer and lower the IC wants to be. Pretty hard to get a 108/4 IC with a ladder bar. In fact, it's impossible.
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I had a 600 horse vega w/ ladder bars and 14x32`s on it, never had to touch the bars, worked well ! a little rough on the street tho.
 
never said a ladder bar was perfect, just that it works really well until you start getting fast, and that is a very relative thing. at elevated power levels, a ladder makes the hit so violent that it starts causing problems. at that point a 4 link is the way to go.
 
Its somewhat like asking would you run a 4 barrel holley or a set of webers with an i.r. manifold. The webers are infinately more adjustable but you better know what your doing.
 
I think I have more than 3 IC adjustments on my ladder bar car. I don't know what guys are considering fast, but my friends street nova runs a 4.90 eighth and a 7.70ish quarter at 3600 pounds and 1700 hp on radials.

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There is also guys running faster than 4.50's in the 1/8 (6.90's in the 1/4) on leaf springs and Caltracs on 275/60 Drag Radials.
 
D-50394 said:
There is also guys running faster than 4.50's in the 1/8 (6.90's in the 1/4) on leaf springs and Caltracs on 275/60 Drag Radials.
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This is the direction I was gonna go with an answer.

With that said to the OP, you've not said WHAT you're doing or HOW FAST you want to go. Lots of records have been made and broken with leaf springs. Just food for thought.
 
Was leaning toward a ladder bar set up.

I purchased a nice 416 W2 motor last winter and we are currently freshening it up and checking everything. It made 688HP on the dyno. This motor went 6.08 in a 68 Dart. My car is a little heavier but should still run some low 6's. I am planning on plugging in providing I get the chassis work completed in time for race time next season.

I had a decent 360 W2 motor that went 6.70's in the 1/8 and it was more than my stock suspension with cal tracs wanted. I scattered that engine at the end of last season. Lesson learned if it don't sound right do not put it on the track. Good motor could have been spared.

I currently have cal tracs on my car now and is mini tubbed with a 29.5X10.5. Right now the car works great and I have a mild 360 running 7teens. Just needing to upgrade.
 
duster1970 said:
Was leaning toward a ladder bar set up.

I purchased a nice 416 W2 motor last winter and we are currently freshening it up and checking everything. It made 688HP on the dyno. This motor went 6.08 in a 68 Dart. My car is a little heavier but should still run some low 6's. I am planning on plugging in providing I get the chassis work completed in time for race time next season.

I had a decent 360 W2 motor that went 6.70's in the 1/8 and it was more than my stock suspension with cal tracs wanted. I scattered that engine at the end of last season. Lesson learned if it don't sound right do not put it on the track. Good motor could have been spared.

I currently have cal tracs on my car now and is mini tubbed with a 29.5X10.5. Right now the car works great and I have a mild 360 running 7teens. Just needing to upgrade.
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As has been mentioned already there are guys going faster with leafs and Caltracs.

Again, the cost of ladder bars verses a 4 link is close. The installation of either is the same. I can't in good conscience say to use a ladder bar if you have the ability to do a 4 link. No one is going to get me to believe that the ladder bar is so far superior to what you have as to make the change of any value. Yes, plenty of guys use them but so what? What you have should work. You didn't mention what you have for shocks. But, if you are not running double adjustable shocks on both ends I would start there.

I have been where you are, but it was exactly 31 years ago. I went to Art Morrison's shop to buy the 4 link and spent most of the day arguing with one of his salesmen. I left without anything because he thought there was no reason to use a 4 link in a mid 9 second stick car. I started on a 1 year study of it. I was almost convinced the LB was good enough until I ran into Dave Morgan. He was at Zeeker chassis at that time. I learned more in an hour on th phone with him than I did the year before. He had not yet written the "Doorslamers" book yet. He taught me there is more to it than hook. It's all about control. It's about manipulation. It's about function. It's about down track and gear change handling. What about housing rotation? A LB does not allow for it.

Anyway, the majority has spoken. I think it's a mistake to do a LB when you have what you have. I've tuned both for decades now and I cringe when I know I have to fight the limits of a LB set up.

Again, you have 3, maybe 4 potential instant centers with a LB. All of them are 32 inches out, and how ever high up you mount the brackets. So say 32/9 or 32/10 or 32/11 if you have the 3 hole bracket. I can tell you, I have NEVER done a 4 link with an IC that short and high. My own car was 108 out and 3 inches up. It is impossible to do that with a ladder bar. I have seen BB stick cars that had an IC that was BELOW ground level!!!

Spend a bit more time looking into what you are doing. If you are willing to learn the 4 link is so far superior to the LB it's not even close.

Good luck.

EDIT: a year later I went back to Art Morrison, and made the same salesman who tried to sell me the ladder bar sell me the 4 link. He started to try to convince me, but I overcame his incompetence with facts and science. I'm sure he wasn't happy. But I was and that's what counts.
 
Horseshoe49 said:
I think I have more than 3 IC adjustments on my ladder bar car. I don't know what guys are considering fast, but my friends street nova runs a 4.90 eighth and a 7.70ish quarter at 3600 pounds and 1700 hp on radials.

View attachment 1714933477

View attachment 1714933478
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Those pictures don't show the front of the bars. How would we know how many holes you have? Some bars have 4 holes instead of 3 and I'm sure they may make a 5 hole bracket. They would all still be 32 inches out. That's too short.
 
Yellow Rose, I agree with what you are saying but for most guys 4 links are a daunting learning curve. My chassis guy built my ladder bars for my car based on wheelbase etc, and what he felt works well. I think I have 5 holes in frt, and 4 link mounts in the rear. I don't know the length off the top of my head, but it is longer than 32 inches. I trusted my chassis guy because of the caliber of cars he has built in the past. The double adjustable shocks you mentioned are probably as important as anything we are discussing for that car.
 
Horseshoe49 said:
Yellow Rose, I agree with what you are saying but for most guys 4 links are a daunting learning curve. My chassis guy built my ladder bars for my car based on wheelbase etc, and what he felt works well. I think I have 5 holes in frt, and 4 link mounts in the rear. I don't know the length off the top of my head, but it is longer than 32 inches. I trusted my chassis guy because of the caliber of cars he has built in the past. The double adjustable shocks you mentioned are probably as important as anything we are discussing for that car.
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So how long are the bars? If possible, can you PM me some pics? You are saying the back of the bars have more than one mounting position? Without pics this make no sense. Moving the back of the LB up or down would still make the IC the same no?

Pics would help me get it.

BTW the 4 link is nothing more than the intersecting of 2 bars. The two biggest issue I had were piss poor starting info and how to get the 4 link correct installed. FWIW, the old saying of half the wheel base and cam high is 100% bull crap. The second thing is the bottom bar, in its middle settings should run down hill 1-2 degrees and intersect near the front joint. Never should the bottom bar be level. Dave Morgan had to publically renounce this practice in about 2002-2003.

Once you get past that, the 4 link is very simple.
 
If you look at the bad picture I posted you can see the housing ladder bar mounts with a 4 link style mount on the housing. In my mind i am thinking you could change the instant center height with this, just not the instant center length. I will be back over working on my cat this weekend and I will measure the length of the ladder bars and get some better pictures. I think I might order that chassis book you have as well, it sounds like a great read. Most of my chassis knowledge comes from circle track.
 
Horseshoe49 said:
I found a couple of more pics.View attachment 1714933624 View attachment 1714933625 View attachment 1714933636

View attachment 1714933632

View attachment 1714933633
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So it looks like 5 holes on a maximum of 5/8 centers, maybe 1/2 and 4 in the back. The guys work looks to be impeccable I just wish I could get into his head!

In my very mushy head, you are changing the angle of the bars (which is a big deal as well...even on the 4 link) but the IC would always be the front mount. Like I said, I'm not in his head.

There are two good books I have on chassis are the very old, but still good and easy to read is Chris Alstons book, or maybe Dave wrote it, I'd have to get it out and look. Either way it's a simple, easy to read book that is a good start.

The other is Dave Morgan's "Doorslamers" book. More technical but written well enough that a person like me with a ninth grade education can get it.

Some day I will get Bickle's books.
 
To the OP. How much front suspension travel do you have? Shocks? Mono leaf springs to go with the Cal Tracs? IMO you'll be wasting money and time installing ladder bars on that car. There is no reason that the Cal Tracs won't work.

I ran 6.50 with a 1.43 60' on radials on an un prepped track at grudge night with 9 way Rancho shocks. This car with less motor has been 1.38 on a good track and 1.40 in street trim. I'm hoping when I get my converter back to go some low 1.30's after tuning.

If I ever step up to big power I'm going to a four link and be done.
 
justinp61 said:
To the OP. How much front suspension travel do you have? Shocks? Mono leaf springs to go with the Cal Tracs? IMO you'll be wasting money and time installing ladder bars on that car. There is no reason that the Cal Tracs won't work.

I ran 6.50 with a 1.43 60' on radials on an un prepped track at grudge night with 9 way Rancho shocks. This car with less motor has been 1.38 on a good track and 1.40 in street trim. I'm hoping when I get my converter back to go some low 1.30's after tuning.

If I ever step up to big power I'm going to a four link and be done.
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I am unsure on the front end travel. I did change to a magnum force suspension with coil overs and this limited my travel versus the stock suspension that came in the car. Thanks to everyones comments. I think it boils down to personal preference. I am leaning towards a 4 link mainly because of the adjustability that comes with it. So if I do upgrade over the upgrade I plan on doing this winter. This will be the best decision for me.
 
justinp61 said:
To the OP. How much front suspension travel do you have? Shocks? Mono leaf springs to go with the Cal Tracs? IMO you'll be wasting money and time installing ladder bars on that car. There is no reason that the Cal Tracs won't work.

I ran 6.50 with a 1.43 60' on radials on an un prepped track at grudge night with 9 way Rancho shocks. This car with less motor has been 1.38 on a good track and 1.40 in street trim. I'm hoping when I get my converter back to go some low 1.30's after tuning.

If I ever step up to big power I'm going to a four link and be done.
Click to expand...

Sorry I didn't fully answer your question. I am running stock springs with my cal tracs. I put the recommended preload in and it jumped like a frog. So I halved the preload and it hooks hard. I just have the rearend lift that all stock abody suspensions have. Its wasted et in my book. Don't get me wrong a lot of you run with big power using cal tracs and I love mine I think its just time to upgrade.
 
duster1970 said:
Sorry I didn't fully answer your question. I am running stock springs with my cal tracs. I put the recommended preload in and it jumped like a frog. So I halved the preload and it hooks hard. I just have the rearend lift that all stock abody suspensions have. Its wasted et in my book. Don't get me wrong a lot of you run with big power using cal tracs and I love mine I think its just time to upgrade.
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Did you ever mention what you have for shocks? I'm old. Can you repost that if you have already?

I'm glad you are leaning towards the 4 link. Spend your time understanding chassis and the 4 link will come easy. Just never start out with an instant center that is half the wheel base a cam high. It's too short and too high for most everything.
 
yellow rose said:
Did you ever mention what you have for shocks? I'm old. Can you repost that if you have already?

I'm glad you are leaning towards the 4 link. Spend your time understanding chassis and the 4 link will come easy. Just never start out with an instant center that is half the wheel base a cam high. It's too short and too high for most everything.
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So say i just got my car back with a new 4 link installed. Know nothing about setting the bars except a little about finding instant center. Were would be the best center and height to start out with?

EDIT: lets say it the OP Duster.
 
Cudafever said:
So say i just got my car back with a new 4 link installed. Know nothing about setting the bars except a little about finding instant center. Were would be the best center and height to start out with?

EDIT: lets say it the OP Duster.
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The bottom bar should NEVER be level in the car. If you read the Doorslammers book Morgan says to make it level, but he corrected this, in print, in about 2002 or 2003. The bottom bar should run down hill, in its middle holes, to intersect and run through the front ball joint.

If you do that, you have kicked about 90% of the ***. The rest depends on HP, RPM and how hard you want or need to hit the tire. If you are making over 500 HP and using a trans brake or better yet, you have a stick, I would start with an IC, at the MINIMUM of 100 inches out, and about 6-8 inches up from the ground. Then you have to tune from there.

Never EVER have the bottom bar parallel to the ground.

My last race car was a small block stick, I shifted at 8500. My IC was either 104 or 108 out and 4-6 inches up. I have done BB stick cars that were 115 inches out and -2 inches down. You are using chassis to control how hard the tire gets hit.
 
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