Help me to choose the right cam

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1930

1930

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Can someone help me to understand these different camshaft profiles, Id like to understand what they are doing and why, also Im assuming I can run these cams with no other modifications but correct me if Im wrong.

Used to be a guy that posted on here ( used to be alot of guys that helped me greatly ) name Krazycuda, back then I could almost ( thanks to Karl ) look at these profiles myself and answer my own question but I guess its one of those things that if you dont use it every now and again its sort of forgotten.

This 21-225-4(Single Bolt) - Xtreme Energy™ Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshafts
is the cam that was in my 1978 ( block ) 440 when I purchased it a week or so ago. I never heard the engine run and right now its at the machine shop having the machine work done.

I plan to have roughly 9.1 compression or so but Im not set on that.

I was told it sounded really good with alot of lump.

For that cam this ............If you want a truck that works take about 20° duration off those specifications and drop the compression ratio to 8.5:1.............piece of advice was given and this guy I believe knows what hes talking about.

This cam 21-600-5 - Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshaft was suggested to me as an alternative.

This engine is going in a 6000 pound truck, Im not looking for speed, it just isnt going to happen and would be a dumb goal to try and achieve in my opinion considering its application. Truck has 31s on it now but am prob. going to 33s or 36s. Manual trans with granny gear, 3.55 gears all the way around.

Main use is show, secondary use is possibly as some point Id pull a trailer but I think that prob. is unrealistic considering I want it to sound mean. ( Ive read recently that mean sounding and torque dont go hand in hand )

Other engine mods will include mild head cleanup of the 345 heads, stock center dump truck manifolds with a 2.5 inch exgaust ) a gear drive, I plan to re-learn CCing the heads, measuring how far down in the hole the piston is so I can choose the correct piston. Its got a 440 performer intake on it now with matching carb but I may change that to a performer RPM if that makes any sense.
 
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The cam your friend suggest to you would be a real POS in your engine. Those Thumpr cams are really lumpy and run really poor.
If you want a Comp cam that will run really well in your truck stay away from Thumpers. If you want a good cam for that application I would probably be looking at a 21-221-4(Single Bolt) - Xtreme Energy™ Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshafts

HYDRAULIC − Strong torque through low end and mid-range, good idle. Hyd. Hyd. 1000 to 5200 21-221-4
Single-Bolt XE256H 256 268 212 218 .447 .455 110°

I think you would be very pleased with the bottom end power this cam will provide.

Tom
 
Thanks, I was warned to stay away from comp cams but that I could use the specs and look into a hughes or some others.
 
36s and 3.55s?
Granny gear or no,I don't see that as particularly fun......
Without knowing your tranny ratios, tho, it would be difficult to recommend an alternate ratio.
Sounds good tho; 6000 pounds, 440,torque cam.
IMO;
I might consider sacrificing some torque and put a decent gear in it.And not using granny on the street.
 
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Tire size has a huge effect on gear ratio.
Take the average of 3.55 with 26" tires would turn 2700 ish rpm @ 60 mph now move up to 33" now 4.56 would turn the same rpm and 36" would need 4.88. In effect all 3 of those combos are the same final gear ratio. If you run 3.55 with 36" your basically lowering your gear ratio to 2.54.
With a torquey 440 is doable depending the weight of the trailer but I'd go with 4.10 at least.
 
As for cam I'd go with stock 440 375 hp cam or similar or like Comps 252H cam it's designed for all the things you want decent mileage, towing works with manifolds.
Also stick with the performer your not gonna see much over 5000 rpm anyways. As for CR 9.1 is a good number for a tame street engine but if you want to run the lowest grade you might not be able to when towing especially with a lazy gearing.
 
The first cam is pretty big for your application. The 2nd one is a strange cam. It isn't a good choice either. It has a real small LSA and has a huge split pattern on the cam which the big block mopar doesn't need. It won't hurt anything but you can literally look at the exhaust valve on the head.

I'd go with something like this
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/crn-683801/overview/
 
Thanks for the comments and suggestions, everything helps :)
 
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Just for reference, my 360 powered W250 has the XE262. I have twin 60s with 4.10s and 32s. If that engine has ever been over 4K I'd be surprised. It's snappy, has a little lope to it, and has a ton of torque at 2K. I use it to push an 8' Meyers plow and pull a car trailer. Even pulling a loaded car trailer up a 10% grade for a couple miles it doesn't need to rev.
My advice - ignore how it idles. It will sound cool anyway with a 440 and performance mufflers.
The XE284H is too big for your use going on your existing gearing and tires, never mind bigger ones. It's also a mismatch without running headers regardless of the tires and driveline. If it was me I'd go no larger than the XE262. I think the XE256 is another good choice but it will leave a little on the table even if you're cruising around at 1800rpm.
 
Yeah, Im pretty much ( almost ) over how it sounds cause your right its gonna sound good regardless. Thanks for the tips.

I guess maybe I should start a new thread but maybe this one will keep going, I ordered a set of heads from indyhead this past week, they are of course 440 heads ( 452 series ) with the oversized 2.19 X 1.88- 3/8 Stainless Steal Valve.

I initially ordered the 516 with the closed chamber but after reading about the slight reduction of air flow and knowing the fact that I was gonna be replacing the pistons in my rebuild and could just as easily go with a taller unit I decided to change my order to the 452 open chambers.

I believe Ive read about pistons that offer a sort of reverse idea of closed chamber design in that evidently the top of the piston at one point is concave and only a smaller portion of the piston goes on up into the head further. This helps with scavenging the left over fuel.

Can you or someone clarify on this for me?

I hope some of this makes sense.
 
1930 said:
I ordered a set of heads from indyhead this past week, they are of course 440 heads ( 452 series ) with the oversized 2.19 X 1.88- 3/8 Stainless Steal Valve.
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I think your going to be sorry for buying heads with oversized valves for your application and I know your going to be sorry for dealing with Indy Cylinder head. A set of stock valves 2.08/ 1.74 would have served you a lot better in your application.
We have at set of ported 452 heads with stock size valves on top of a 500" drag race engine in a 63 Plymouth that doesn't run out of power until 5500 rpms and pulls like a freight train. Point I am making is your not going to have any air speed in those heads with those big valves and thus no torque. But like they say everyone has there opinion on it.
Tom
 
PROSTOCKTOM said:
I think your going to be sorry for buying heads with oversized valves for your application and I know your going to be sorry for dealing with Indy Cylinder head. A set of stock valves 2.08/ 1.74 would have served you a lot better in your application.
We have at set of ported 452 heads with stock size valves on top of a 500" drag race engine in a 63 Plymouth that doesn't run out of power until 5500 rpms and pulls like a freight train. Point I am making is your not going to have any air speed in those heads with those big valves and thus no torque. But like they say everyone has there opinion on it.
Tom
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I hope your not right but whats done is done. Im sure you have a MUCH better idea of what needs to be done than I do however.

I do have some ideas about getting air movement though so lets see what happens.

No comment yet on dealing with Indy cause I am still waiting on the heads.

I will say that customer service really stinks it seems no matter who we deal with and Im sure it stems from everyone undercutting everyone else, there simply is so little room for profit anymore regardless of what a man does. This in turn makes everyone unhappy and they seem to want everyone else around them unhappy.

Thanks for what you posted, it did help, it gave me something to think about. I do understand what you mean and had not considered that before making the purchase. I will now have to think of a way to make up for my mistake.

My initial thought ( to a big timer like you Im sure it may sound too simplistic ) was to do a nice job of getting dual snorkels plumbed into the air cleaner that I choose, I am a bodyman by trade and am good at what I do so I know I can do a nice job.

They offered a single snorkel on some of these trucks and the inlet was just below H-lamp, Im going to ad another to the other side.

I guess that this really isnt going to help so much as low speeds or takeoff and that is prob. when I will need the air movement the most but its a start.

If you have any other suggestions of improving air speed Im all ears.

Not trying to build something that I expect to go fast, just trying to have some fun and hopefully learn a few things along the way.
 
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To me I would think it would hard to over valve a 440. Valve size per cubic a 2.19 valve in a 440 would be the same as 1.78 in a 360. And the port restriction is highest at the valve then the bowl follow by the port opening. When you see head build ups valves seem to help with low lift numbers until you open the full port.
 
273 said:
To me I would think it would hard to over valve a 440. Valve size per cubic a 2.19 valve in a 440 would be the same as 1.78 in a 360. And the port restriction is highest at the valve then the bowl follow by the port opening. When you see head build ups valves seem to help with low lift numbers until you open the full port.
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Ive read a few times something about a Mopar bible, somewhere within this bible is some sort of stencils for do it yourself home porting, Indy told me they do it for another few hundred, Im sure that they would do a MUCH better job than I could cause they have the experience but I told him no cause I want to do as much as I can myself, Ive only built one other V-8 motor myself and that was at least 15 years ago, it was a 340 and that thing was unbelievable. Sounded great, ran great ect. Only mistake with that engine I made was putting into a big heavy ramcharger.

What a slug.

Id like to say I built this 440 myself too.

Can you or someone direct me to this bible and clarify if this is where Ill find this home porting deal.
 
The MP porting templates are for stock sized valves so no bueno with 2.19x1.88. You don't need valves that big and effectively make the head worthless down the road as you have no room to grow.See if it is too late to nix the big valves.Stock valves and money spent on bowl porting and back cutting the valves would be money better spent IMO.Get as much low and mid lift flow as you can.Who cares what peak flow is for this motor.
 
273 said:
To me I would think it would hard to over valve a 440. Valve size per cubic a 2.19 valve in a 440 would be the same as 1.78 in a 360. And the port restriction is highest at the valve then the bowl follow by the port opening. When you see head build ups valves seem to help with low lift numbers until you open the full port.
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You can very easily put to large of valves in any engine. Just because it's a 440 does not mean it needs 2.19" valves and for sure it does not need 1.88" exhaust. Just because a flow bench show large cfm it does not show air speed through the port. If that logic were the case why not run 2.25" valves and just hog the port out with a large end mill. There is far more to building a super efficient
engine than tossing in a big cam and large valves. For the application this engine is for with 2.19"/ 1.88" valves it's going to be a dog.
We only run 2.14" intake vales in our 526" engine that turns 7200 rpms


You tell me if were doing it right or not running 5.40's in the 1/8th

Tom
 
PROSTOCKTOM said:
You can very easily put to large of valves in any engine. Just because it's a 440 does not mean it needs 2.19" valves and for sure it does not need 1.88" exhaust. Just because a flow bench show large cfm it does not show air speed through the port. If that logic were the case why not run 2.25" valves and just hog the port out with a large end mill. There is far more to building a super efficient
engine than tossing in a big cam and large valves. For the application this engine is for with 2.19"/ 1.88" valves it's going to be a dog.
We only run 2.14" intake vales in our 526" engine that turns 7200 rpms


You tell me if were doing it right or not running 5.40's in the 1/8th

Tom
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That things a slug!! I think at a minimum you need some 2.19 / 1.88 valves to loosen it up a bit :)
 
AJ/FormS said:
6000 pounds, 3.55s, and 36s. Hmmm,Turbo time! But the heads are on the way so..........I guess the turbo money is spent.
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Theres still a corner of my credit card that I havent used yet :)
 
I am considering all the suggestions above still but Id like to hear comments on this Lunati Voodoo Cam and Lifter Kit 10230702LK
camshaft, it was recommended to me by the Lunati tech guy, unfortunately he didnt ask me a whole lot of questions such as wether or not Im runnin A/C, power brakes, power steering ( which I am ) ect as I thought he should have.

What do you guys think of this cam?

Thanks
 
I had good results with a Edelbrock Perfomer Cam..I used
this cam in my former 440 HP engine ( 66 Coronet )
AWFUL LOT OF TORQUE ! from the bottom end .... till 4500 rpm ....
Greetings Juergen
 
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