Torque Thrust lug nut issue

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mflynn

mflynn

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Looking for opinions/past experience/suggestions re: the following issue. Just finished restoration on 68 Cuda. Put it on the road (registered, insured, plates) 5 days ago. Awesome feeling. Did about a week's work of up and down my street "testing" beforehand, then drove it locally the first few days, and worked out a bunch of tweaks. The goal has been to drive her out to annual 4th of July bash at our lake house (I live in greater Boston, lake is in W.Mass about 70 miles away - I know, too much detail). Anyway, during local drives, lug nuts were coming loose, front and back. One even fell off in my garage, which brought the issue to my attention. Since then I've been driving and checking, retighten and repeat, also have had some mechanics who have been working with me tighten to torque specs. Also - had some rear end "shaking" (don't know right word to use here, noticeable but not alarming), when coasting, but not when accelerating or braking. Yesterday I tightened everything up one last time and headed for the lake, using back roads and staying off interstate (I know this wasn't safest thing to do, so try to refrain from making me feel any more guilty). Initially stopped every 10-15 miles or so to check lug nuts. A couple of loose (not excessively) ones - rear only (fronts seem to have tightened up even before trip) - that seemed to progressively tighten up as trip went on. "Shaking" remained. Did last 20 miles of the trip at higher speeds (35-55 mph) and the "shaking" seems to have disappeared. Also, checked lug nuts upon arrival and everything seems to have stayed tight with exception of maybe one nut on right rear. I have Torque Thrust II's (aluminum) and mag lug nuts. Willwood front disc conversion. Adapter/spacer on rear drum hubs (front conversion required change in bolt pattern to 5 x 4.5). Adapter is NOT hub centric.

Anyone have a similar experience? Should I continue to be worried? Is this just something that resolves as the hub to wheel interface "breaks in?" Is a hub centric adapter recommended? Any other suggestions?

Thanks in advance - I know from past experience that the members of this Forum will have the right answers!
 
The wheels take shank nuts,right? The AR site is no help in declaring the nut type or the Unilug pattern, so I'm going by memory from the 70's
and the adapters take standard hex nuts with cone seats, right?
I'm assuming the adapters are staying tight on the drums.
Take a look at the backside of the wheels, and the mounting surface of the adapters. At least one of those faces has to be flat, and solid, to support the interface.Then make sure your shank nuts do not protrude out the back of the wheel, nor are too short that the shoulder does not drive,for at least 80% of the wheel's drive surface.The Unilug washers are too soft by themselves and need large thick washers to prevent the Unilug washers from saucering. And the nut needs to be deep enough that the the nut, when tightened, does not bottom on the stud before it tightens the wheel.
Those shank nuts are available in at least 3 lengths and at least 2 different shoulders.
And finally, if the wheels are Unilug, and NOT hubcentric, you are fighting a losing battle.
That's all I got.....

Except for this;
If the wheels are not Unilugs, then;
What are the chances that the studs in the adapter were not fully installed when you received them, and you have just been drawing them through until they have become seated? ......Or
What are the chances that you are sucking the studs right through a soft adapter?Whoaa, that's a scary thought right there!
You can't fit hubcentric spacers to an adapter. You would have to fabricate your own ring and machine your adapter to receive it. By that time you could have converted to the proper bolt-pattern and have better,more accurate results.
 
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I wouldn't say I was an expert on this but I would be afraid of continuing with your rides until this is fully sorted out. As I understand it, Mopars use hub centric wheels and if your mags don't match your hubs' center rings, all the weight of your vehicle are on your studs instead of the hubs. Then if the mags have the uni-lug holes, you don't even have full hole contact with the studs. Wheel lugs should never be loaded like this. This would explain both the shake and the loosening.

Get yourself something that will engage the hub circles (different rims) until you can find some kind of adapter that will load the hubs.

(I see A/J beat me to this post while I was still typing. I agree with him too!)
 
that would worry me to death. I was in the passengers seat of a hotrod 65 ss Impala when she tossed the right rear Cragar. My head hit roof, then windshield, then from eblow up of me went out the door window. The car was hurt much more than I was. 2nd wheel well formed in that quarter panel.
My best guess, based on previous posts in this forum, your wheels have a metric hole circle that doesn't quite match the 4.5 inch lug circle.
 
You didn't say, but did you have the wheel/tire assembly balanced when the tires were mounted? The other thing that came immediately to mind (because I've experienced it with steel wheels), are you certain the wheels are true? If the wheels aren't true (which would also show up in a spin balance), the wobble will not only cause the lug nuts to loosen but could also cause the shake you're feeling. Definitely fix this before putting the car back on the road.
 
72Duster440 said:
I run torq thrust ii wheels on mine. They do NOT use mag lug nuts. Mine use the standard acorn style tapered lug nut, I ended up getting external spline nuts because they are thinner and it improved socket clearance.
Click to expand...

X2 I also have TT2 wheels and they DO NOT take mag lug nuts.....They take standard tapered seat lug nuts
 
1...Hub centric has nothing to do with this. "Most" of my old cars that had mags DID NOT USE hub centric whether intended or not. Hell I hadn't even HEARD of that until I "got on" the internet.

2....You have the wrong nuts plain and simple. "It should be obvious" just looking at a wheel. Wheels designed for shoulder nuts have STRAIGHT through holes.......the small diameter of the shoulder nut can drop clear through the wheel

3...DO NOT drive the car until you get this FIXED. Loose nuts in 15 miles? And you are driving the car?? NUTS!!!

I don't have any good photos of my cars "back then." This 70 went 140,000 till I sold it, and MOST of it's life had these NOT centric wheels. I cannot ever remember loose nuts, nor worrying that they might be

81sruds.jpg
 
Have had nothing but trouble with "unilug" wheels...would never use them again...
 
I don't think what he's talking about is unilug, Doug. I had them on the 67 before I tore it apart, and I admit I did "watch" them, lol
 
The American Racing Torq Thrust 2 is a modern era wheel that uses an acorn / tapered seat lug nut. It is not a "unlug" wheel. All of their current production wheels in the Torque Thrust line are this way, acorn seat and designed to be hub centric with hub rings.
Pretty much everything made since the late 80's with the exception of some Cragar S/S wheels have gotten away from the classic "unilug" setup that use the shank / washer style lug nut.
Make sure you have a proper set of acorn lug nuts on the car and torque them to spec.
I have a set of Torq Thrust D's on my '72 Duster that were made in the early 90's that thankfully use tapered lug nuts. Despite not being hub centric I have had zero issues with vibration as long as the person at the tire shop pays attention to the balancer. If there was an issue with vibration a simple swap to "et" style acorn nuts would help.
Make sure the adapters you are using are torqued properly before you install the wheels too. Using the bolt on spacers isn't the best way to go but they do work when installed properly.

Hope this helps.
 
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Non hub-centric adapters, unilug wheels = the perfect storm. do it right..save your life.
 
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bigblockbird said:
Non hub-centric adapters, unilug wheels = the perfect storm. do it right..save your life.
Click to expand...
Thanks for all the feedback - I'm still trying to sort out all of the suggestions, and I'd like to respond to each and every one, but am pressed for time right now.

A couple of things though - for safety's sake, I'm flatbedding home.

"Shaking" is right rear only now (or at least feels that way), and the only lug nuts that are loosening now are on right rear - which brings me to the next thing - I just noticed right leaf spring seems to be depressed. Could this be the root of the whole problem? I'm attaching photos of left v. Right sides - difference of at least 1" left higher than right.

I've also attached a photo of the rear set up - does this clarify/change/confirm anyone's prior comments/suggestion re: unilug, acorn v. Mag nut, metric, hub centric adapters, etc.?
 
Oh I wouldn't say "perfect" Storm,lol
I've had unilugs on my winter beater since, a very long time. I'll guess 20years. No problems, but Like I said in an earlier post, I have installed some thick steel, probably hardened, washers on top of the unilug washers, which keeps the unilug washers from saucering(going concave) into the unilug slot. That beater tho, in all fairness, is a slanty/904, and I have always driven it like the grampa that I am. I think I checked the torque, in about 2012, when I installed a different set of used tires. She gets all the hand-me-downs.
 
Can you post a pic of your wheels without lug nuts and post a pic of lug nuts you are using. As stated above the majority of wheels including the Torque Thrust 2 take a conical style lug nut which is the most common. Also it is possible that one of your brake drums are not balanced or the weight has come off. Are they new? What are your wheels torqued to? What pattern to torque? Also are you using anti seize on your studs, i hope not. Also make sure your adapters arent hitting the weights on the drum
 
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Yeah it could be a broken spring.Could also be screwed up T-bar adjustment.
You will have to tri-pod it and check the T-bars first. I do this by jacking up the rear end until the wheels come off the ground. But before the car goes up I put a bar across the jack-saddle, so the rear-end can rock from side to side.I use an old tranny cluster-pin. Get your front evened out, and then recheck the rear.
Yeah you can jack the T-bars around until all 4 corners are level, without tri-podding it; but if you do that, you may be putting a really nice big twist into the chassis, and who knows how that will handle.
 
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Looking at the pics, are those the old school wheel spacers that slide over the studs? (Like you would get at the local box retail parts store.)

If so, you may want to leave them off if you have spring clearance. The problem with the lugs loosening will probably stop. The thin cast aluminum parts stood spacers are usually poor quality and can move around.

Otherwise a set of bolt on spacers, which are usually 1 inch or thicker, can work better if a spacer is needed. A quality set can be purchased with the correct size center bore to be hub centric. A lot of the guys using Mustang wheels have to run them to "make" the offset "correct."
 
Those adapters use the axle studs to bolt to car. And wheel bolts to studs on adapter. I was running cast aluminum adapters before I recently had a pair of billet aluminum adaptersmade. had no issues. Plenty of 4k hole shots on them without issues. Dont know what brand they were. all they said was SEMA or SEMA approved
 
shaggyjk said:
Looking at the pics, are those the old school wheel spacers that slide over the studs?..................
Click to expand...

On the fronts I used these "old school" adapters prior to my disc / LBC swap and I never had a loosening issue........
MoparWheelAdapt1.gif



Here's the drums they were on........
69BarrDrum.gif
 
Daves69 said:
On the fronts I used these "old school" adapters prior to my disc / LBC swap and I never had a loosening issue........
View attachment 1714948135


Here's the drums they were on........
View attachment 1714948136
Click to expand...

I totally read the part of his post stating he did the Wilwood front disc conversion and where used these adapters on the rear and wasn't thinking that the rear end is probably still the small bolt pattern, hence the need for them out back. Guess I kept thinking they were bolt on spacers and not the bolt pattern adapters. (I didn't even think about the Torq Thrust 2 is available in 5x4.5 or the GM 5x4.75 bolt pattern but not in the small 5x4 pattern.) I went through this a few years back on my '72 Duster when I converted the front from the 9 in drum to the factory '73-76 disc setup. My car already had a lbp rear end in it so I simply didn't think about it.

Still, these spacers / adapters shouldn't be working loose if torqued properly... unless there is another issue. Brake drum not seating on the axle flange from rust or debris, warped drum, warped spacer, poorly balanced tire, etc. Could try putting the rear end on jack stands withe the adapters bolted on without the wheels bolted up and have a helper put the car in gear and allow the axle to spin slowly. This would be an easy way to check for and obvious visual issues with warped parts / runout that could cause a bad vibration. It may help guide the owner in the right direction.
 
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