Hei /6 won't shut off?

-

Ters

Mopar infected...
Joined
Sep 19, 2015
Messages
251
Reaction score
51
Location
Pretoria, South Africa.
I have converted my slant to Hei using Echlin TP 45 unit. Solid 12V from Bat (fused) into 4 prong Hella relay. Trigger from 12V live ignition on. All earth's give good continuity to block/body? All proper new wires used, soldered ends with good crimping on terminal connectors.... I have read 99% of articles on the web for research and preparation prior to conversion.

She starts and runs great, but will not shut off with Ignition switch?

Ters.
 
I have run into this before , your getting feedback through ground thats keeping the your HEI box live , I fixed it with a one way diode
 
I can only guess that a wiring error in relay circuit, keeps it energized, once it is enabled.

If you show circuit diagram of all related connections, we might be able to help.
 
I can only guess that a wiring error in relay circuit, keeps it energized, once it is enabled.

If you show circuit diagram of all related connections, we might be able to help.

Thank you for your replies gentlemen! I followed Dan's tutorial to a T: Mopar Owners Group South Africa • View topic - HEI (High Energy Ignition) Retrofit How-To
Trigger wire off when ignition off....think I found the culprit though. Voltage to ignition switch via pilot light connection, disconnect from alternator and she shuts off. I will replace the ignition switch and take it from there.

Ters.
 
Physical relays often need a diode acoss the coil to ensure that this does not happen.
It is standard engineering practice in electronics design.
 
A diode with cathode towards pilot will supply light from switched 12V, but will prevent feed from alternator powering relay.

Physical relays often need a diode across the coil to ensure that this does not happen.
A diode on the relay coil freewheels current, when coil is turned off to prevent voltage spike from inductive kickback. Coil polarity is important, when wiring when diode is present. The diode there will not fix Ters problem.
 
Last edited:
Then somehow the relay has been wired so that it is creating its own hold-in voltage, bypassing the ignition switch.
This is a standard motor-control wiring circuit, and will require isolating whatever wire is backfeeding to the IGN circuit.
 
Thank you for your replies gentlemen! I followed Dan's tutorial to a T: Mopar Owners Group South Africa • View topic - HEI (High Energy Ignition) Retrofit How-To
Trigger wire off when ignition off....think I found the culprit though. Voltage to ignition switch via pilot light connection, disconnect from alternator and she shuts off. I will replace the ignition switch and take it from there.

Ters.

THIS ALTERNATOR hookup just might be your problem. "See" you guys come in here with who knows what wired up DIFFERENTLY from factory and expect our crystal balls to boot up and spit out the answers. This kind of thing is well known on Gee Emm products, but Mopars "don't normally have" charge indicators.
 
THIS ALTERNATOR hookup just might be your problem. "See" you guys come in here with who knows what wired up DIFFERENTLY from factory and expect our crystal balls to boot up and spit out the answers. This kind of thing is well known on Gee Emm products, but Mopars "don't normally have" charge indicators.


EXAMPLE: GM 12SI with idiot lamp BYPASSED for tractors, etc:

AlternatorHarness.jpg


If you need / want an indicator, you wire it in series with the diode here. This prevents TWO bad things.........feedback after shutdown coming from the indicator circuit, and failure of the internal diode trio, because it becomes the source of power and is not big enough to handle that current.
 
Chrysler wanted their customers to have much more useful information than an idiot light and provided real ammeters to do so.
A "pilot light " would only be be showing that the ignition circuit is powered, it's not the same as a "discharge" light as used by GM.
 
THIS ALTERNATOR hookup just might be your problem. "See" you guys come in here with who knows what wired up DIFFERENTLY from factory and expect our crystal balls to boot up and spit out the answers. This kind of thing is well known on Gee Emm products, but Mopars "don't normally have" charge indicators.

Noted. In defence though, this is the way I bought the vehicle sir, slowly but surely sorting ALL known issues. I appreciate your useful comments, thank you.

Ters.
 
Since the diode is in series, it can be placed anywhere between the ignition switch and alternator for convenience, either side of indicator as long as the cathode faces the alternator indicator terminal. My earlier suggestion in post #6 was perhaps too specific.
 
GM...Improved to a failure ?
Time will tell.
Why the switch over ?
 
20160625_164844.jpg
20160702_114540.jpg
20160702_114611.jpg
20160514_100741.jpg
GM...Improved to a failure ?
Time will tell.
Why the switch over ?

I swapped my one car (Chevy Firenza, 327 V8) for this South African Valiant Charger (aka Demon/Duster) sight unseen. I am new to Mopar, but fell for the brand after owning a '67 Dodge Monaco for 2 years....still own it. The Charger was very neglected and abused. Slowly started to get her driving and stopping. Had endless trouble with intermittent missing and poor starting. Redone the Carter with marginal improvement. next was chain and gears. Also found distributor worn, with lots of side way play. Was offered an electronic unit by a friend, without the Mopar module. Internet search took me to the various options, of which the GM Hei conversion seemed the most doable. Being an avid diyer, it is the least costly or invasive....I must confess though, never kept in mind what influence previous owners "modification" would have on such an easy and effective swap.

I think of the issue as a small stumble which can be overcome by fitting a diode as suggested and explained by kind KitCarlson, thank you sir.

Ters.

ps. And yes, they both are right hand steer:thumbsup:.
 
Since the diode is in series, it can be placed anywhere between the ignition switch and alternator for convenience, either side of indicator as long as the cathode faces the alternator indicator terminal. My earlier suggestion in post #6 was perhaps too specific.

Thank you kind sir!

Ters.
 
Great looking cars!

The slight stumble might be something else. I see ground connection at coil bracket, but uncertain in seeing ground at HEI module other than mount bolts. Aluminum forms an outer oxide layer that is transparent, and a great insulator. One of the mounting locations on the HEI module has a brass surface, it is the HEI ground. A wired connection to ground may help.

The two wires that go to the pickup coil in the distributor can pickup noise due to proximity of nearby HV coil wire. The noise can result in pemature spark, making the next spark low on energy. It is best to make that a twisted pair, short as possible, and away from coil to distributor cable and plug wires. Polarity is also important. The best check is to set crank at where base timing is set, then open distributor cap and view relation of reluctor tooth, pickup coil prong. They should be nearly alligned, but the reluctor is just passing slightly. If the alignment is between teeth, the pickup coil wires need to be reversed and timing reset. It is always best to static time engine to get one running. With all that, incorrect polarity more likely results in more degraded performance than slight stumble. The problem could be vacuum advance, or carb issue.

An e-core coil is less attractive, but puts out a better spark due to greater electro magnetic circuit efficiency.
 
Somehow I missed this was an overseas car. Yup!! Different alternator and different wiring. It surely is related to the alternator / indicator lamp I would say

The diode you would need is very non critical. Any rectifier diode rated for 25 PIV "or more" and say, 1/2 amp or more. Depending on the harness setup, you might be able to build a little heat shrinked assembly that will plug into the indicator circuit.

And it will depend somewhat on how the alternator is wired. It would be helpful if you can provide a diagram of that.

This kind of thing, really, is poor design on the part of the manufacturers. What they depended on, originally, is that the feedback to the ignition line is "not much power" and that due to the relatively large current required by the load on the ignition "run" circuit, it would be dropped / bled off to a low enough value, that it would not be a problem. People "come along" with relays and MSD etc and now the load on the run circuit has dropped to a low value (relay coil) so now it "IS" a big problem.
 
Last edited:
Excellent work. Kit is one of the electronics experts here, so good he chimed in. I agree that you should run a dedicated ground wire to a mounting screw on the HEI module, and also that an e-core coil would be better. Skip White sells a pretty one for ~$20 on ebay, but giving overseas shipping, you might use a factory one. If they have 90's Dodge trucks or Jeep Grand Cherokees w/ 5.2/5.9L engines there, might use a coil for it. 90's GM or Ford are similar.

I also mounted an HEI module on an old PC heat sink (w/ thermal compound). But, I used the later 8-pin GM HEI module since better sealed connectors, and simple to use the GM coil since easy plug n' play. TrailBeast sells a kit of new parts if junkyard doesn't work for you (85-95 GM V-8 trucks, cars to 93).
 
Somehow I missed this was an overseas car. Yup!! Different alternator and different wiring. It surely is related to the alternator / indicator lamp I would say

And it will depend somewhat on how the alternator is wired. It would be helpful if you can provide a diagram of that.

Wiring harness should be the same as Demon/Duster sir....Chrysler South Africa marketed them as Chargers here, saving us from the "Demon"?! Lol!!

She initially had the round-back alternator, but was changed to the common Lucas type somewhere along the line..... I traced the charging wire to the bulkhead, but with the idiot light wire going through the wall directly to the light.

I will fit the diode and report back. When I remove the wire from the alternator clip she does not charge the battery...

Ters.
 
Great looking cars! An e-core coil is less attractive, but puts out a better spark due to greater electro magnetic circuit efficiency.

Thank you for the compliment!

I have sourced an e-core from a breakers yard, out of a, Opel/Vauxhall... Delco Remy. This one has the "exposed" (4) terminals. I will fit and surely notice more improved ignition?! The Hei module is being earthed to a designated earth as we speak, also paying attention to the other possible wiring mislocation you mentioned.

Thank you very much for the time you took to read and comment on my post!

Ters.
 
A simple way to bench test ignition is to attach a plug to the coil directly skipping cap and rotor. Use a battery to supply power, rotate distributor shaft and observe spark intensity. A string is a simple way to do that. The plug gap can be opened to about 0.04". It is important to keep the ground strap parallel to end of tip terminal. This results in a uniform spark and long wear life. Never contact tip nor ceramic when adjusting, or plug may be damaged. The ground strap typically chopped off square, but if the ends are radiused it gets rid of sharp hot spots that can preignite. Some high end plugs come that way.

If you have a scope with a high voltage probe 1kV or more, the primary voltage can be observed at the - coil terminal, and multiplied by the coil turns ratio. It is possible to measure spark duration after the initial strike, by viewing the decay after the large initiation strike. More duration indicates more energy. Larger gap shortens duration. The wave is best stored for that. A low value 0.1 Ohm or less shunt resistor can be used to observe the primary supply current ramp during coil charge. Current probe can be used too, but they are very expensive. From the current ramp, the peak current can be measured. Current is calculated by dividing the voltage by the shunt resistor value. Coil energy increases with the current squared. The coil inductance can also be estimated from the ramp time. The HEI has a controlled current. Well that is a start. There may be old posts by me with more information on this forum.
I am no expert, but just work with this as a hobby I enjoy.
 
I assume your coil is similar to this? I assume the terminals are common at each end. Polarity matters, correct spark discharge is negative at high tension terminal. If terminals are not marked, an inexpensive D'Arsonval type meter for 12V gauge, with a few meg Ohms in series will provide deflection to measure polarity on the high tension side during spark discharge.
coilpack.JPG
 
Wow, you do know your "hobby"!

Same coil yes sir....I only tidied it up a little, will fit tomorrow. The posts are clearly marked +-, should not have a problem installing.

Ters.
20160704_164532.jpg
20160704_164559.jpg
 
-
Back
Top