Brake Hub help please! Sbp to bbp

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/72Scamp

/72Scamp

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Hi guys. I have a 69 valiant 2 dr post with sbp disks up front. Previous owner put on wheel adapters to run bbp wheels. I never realized it when putting my current setup on. Currently running 215/65/15 up front with cooper Cobras on 15x7 cop wheels.I finally got the car to sit how I want and got an alignment and now my tires rub the fender. Just on the way home from work I gouged my tire up bad and bent my lower rear section of my front fender. Seeing I already have a disk setup can I just buy a late model a body 5x4.5 hub as a direct replacement? Or will I have to do other things also to get my wheels on without the adapter. Without the adapter the wheels will clear the fender no problem. My local Napa or sanel carries them for short money compared to other brands out there. Any help would be extremely helpful.

Thanks guys.
 
I know people say you need upper control arms and larger ballpoints for the bbp disk setups but seeing I already have disks I'm hoping they are the same.
 
Question - is this a factory small bolt pattern disc brake setup in front, or an aftermarket SBP disc conversion? Would help to know what equipment is already on the car.

The A-body SBP upper control arm balljoints fit in a socket; it's not possible to modify it to accept the larger balljoint.

Might even make sense to put on some caster-adjusted tubular control arms on, if you can find them. Might be double the cost of the factory units, but then there's no worry about needing offset Moog bushings (which are also overpriced).

-Kurt
 
I'm assuming the car had factory drum brakes. My guess the previous owner installed these. Everything is in great condition minus the pads.
 
/72Scamp said:
I'm assuming the car had factory drum brakes. My guess the previous owner installed these. Everything is in great condition minus the pads.
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You're probably best off swapping to all '73-76 LBP disc parts, starting with the upper control arm and spindle.

I take it those are Kelsey-Hayes 4-piston calipers you have at the moment. I have no idea if these will bolt up to the later disc spindles with no modification; I'll check.

-Kurt
 
Post pictures,of the situation..,every car is different, when you make these moves.,(It's not Mopar here,it-s hot rodding.. There's no magical ,bolt on...,
 
So.... I just spoke with ss brakes at ssbrakes.com and they claim their dual bolt pattern disks will fit any factory a body disk brake spindle. They are $120 a piece. Can anyone deny or confirm this? Please ignore my ignorance. This is my first time playing with breaks on an old car.
 
/72Scamp said:
If you could find out that would be awesome thanks Kurt!
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Did a check. Doubt it. The KH calipers mount farther inboard to center with the rotor. Check out the Mustang rotor trick that Jimacuda suggested.

-Kurt
 
I've looked into that. I can't seem to find anyone around here to do the machine work
 
/72Scamp said:
Hi guys. I have a 69 valiant 2 dr post with sbp disks up front. Previous owner put on wheel adapters to run bbp wheels. I never realized it when putting my current setup on. Currently running 215/65/15 up front with cooper Cobras on 15x7 cop wheels.I finally got the car to sit how I want and got an alignment and now my tires rub the fender. Just on the way home from work I gouged my tire up bad and bent my lower rear section of my front fender. Seeing I already have a disk setup can I just buy a late model a body 5x4.5 hub as a direct replacement? Or will I have to do other things also to get my wheels on without the adapter. Without the adapter the wheels will clear the fender no problem. My local Napa or sanel carries them for short money compared to other brands out there. Any help would be extremely helpful.

Thanks guys.
Click to expand...

if you have disc brakes now but they are SBP, just take the hub/rotor to a machine shop, get some screw in studs from jegs or summit drop em off and tell them you want 4.5 on 5 bolt pattern drilled with screw in studs. that way you don't lose your alignment and you get rid of the adapters/spacers(if they are billet you can probably sell them for most of the cost of drilling your hubs/rotors.) mine were done for under 30 bucks but I didn't have to drill the rotors either just the hubs. I went the scarebird way and am glad I did.


before the drilling
DSCF2791.JPG

after with rotors on
DSCF2966.JPG





these 2 dart will be # 7 & 8 that I have converted to the scarebird way. braking has been awesome and yes 2 of the cars have had brake pads done after 25k to check on wear and how a chevy rotor is holding up on a BB 440 65 satellite that gets abused regularly:D oops I mean driven.


they even have a paper pattern you can get or make and drill the hubs your self if you can't find anyone to do the drilling for you.
 
Finally got the hubs off and I don't think I can have them redrilled. I have never seen a hub like this. Typically 1 solid piece of material. I found someone who said he can redrill 5x4.5 for me.
What do you guys think?

image.jpeg
 
Obviously the adapter needs to come off but will drilling where there is no support work?
 
I'm playing in waters that I'm not that familiar with, but let's see if I can figure out what's going on here:

66dvert's Scarebird setup assumes that you have a separate wheel hub. For old Mopars, this usually means "I have a hub because my existing brake setup has drums, and the drums are riding on the factory hubs." This allows you to mount the Chevy Caprice calipers on (usually re-drilled for SBP), like what you see in 66dvert's pictures.

That's fine if you're coming from a drum brake setup, but I'm not sure this is possible with a unicast rotor, or a two-piece casting with an integral hub (which is what you have, /72Scamp):

brakes2.jpg


From the looks of the unicast version of the Kelsey-Hayes drum, there isn't ANY meat on the rotor to drill for a larger bolt pattern; it already has recesses in the rotor hat just for the 4" bolt pattern, much less anything larger.

What would be very interesting to know is whether a Kelsey-Hayes spindle will support a Mopar B-body 10" LBP drum brake hub. And only if so, will a Caprice rotor perfectly center itself between the Kelsey-Hayes caliper pistons? And would the Caprice rotor be wide enough for the K/H caliper design? And would the Kelsey-Hayes caliper clear the larger rotor hat?

If that whole gobbly-dee-gook I just said would work, there's your Kelsey-Hayes-to-LBP conversion on a silver platter.

Question: Does anyone have the bearing raceway specifications for the K/H spindles? I'm about ready to cut the swedged drums off my B-body hubs this weekend - or tomorrow - and can verify whether the hub specifications would match the K/H spindles. That'd be step #1.

Step #2 would be to measure the Caprice caliper from the inner hub flange to the center of the rotor surface.

Step #3 would be to throw a B-body hub onto a K/H spindle and measure the distance between the outer hub edge to the center of the caliper.

Step #4 would compare the measurements of step #2 and #3. If virtually identical, say "Hurrah!" and proceed with the swap.

-Kurt
 
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Ok, did some searching. The Scarebird setup does not use Caprice rotors. This PDF claimed it did, but the rotor part numbers given are for a Toyota Previa DX (no to be confused with LE) without ABS, from 1991-94. Further searching confirms this.

Centric usually publishes their rotor specifications in their stock images, so I found the corresponding Centric number 121.44070. Unfortunately, not much to go on:

ce121.44070_1.jpg


At this point, it might be worth it just to start a new thread with the thread title "Will B-body drum hubs fit an A-body Kelsey-Hayes spindle?," and link back to this one. Once you get that answer and the measurements, might be worth it just to pick up a pair of hubs, because it'll be easier to buy the Previa rotors and find out at that point.

I'll bet that even if the Previa rotors don't fit, there's a 5-on-4.5" rotor out there that will work.

Then there's the possibility that there's a one-piece rotor out there with a 5-on-4.5" bolt pattern that'll slide right onto the Kelsey-Hayes spindle.

-Kurt
 
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According to this thread, the wheel bearings for the K-H spindles and the 10" drums are identical. Now all we need is a center-to-center measurement between raceways.

If it matches the center-to-center distance of a B-body drum or disc spindle, you're already on your way to something...

-Kurt
 
You guys are amazing. I am at work for the weekend so I cannot pull any measurements. I can try first thing Monday if no one else chimes in with them. Thank you all again very much !
 
/72Scamp said:
You guys are amazing. I am at work for the weekend so I cannot pull any measurements. I can try first thing Monday if no one else chimes in with them. Thank you all again very much !
Click to expand...

If you can post the distance between bearings on the K-H spindles, that would definitely help.

I'm still a bit skeptical that the K-H caliper location on the stock KH spindle will support LBP. Any chance you have a photo of the caliper and rotor installed? I'm curious to see how far the 4.5" bolt circle sits, relative to the caliper.

In the worst of cases, you can always do the FMJ spindle conversion, if you don't mind going to a single-piston caliper. Any junkyards in your area with M-body parts for cheap? If so, then you're probably best off scavenging a pair of spindles and caliper adapters from one, and simply loading up on new rotors, calipers, and ball joints. Most expensive single thing will be the upper control arm, and you'll probably be best off finding a pair of used tubular UCA's so you can have the improved caster built in without the need for offset Moog UCA bushings.

-Kurt
 
I'm really skeptical at this point whether the Kelsey-Hayes spindle can support the 4.5" bolt pattern, just because of the distance between the caliper and the raised rotor hat.

However, despite my skepticism, here's a measurement of the inner and outer bearings on a standard B-body drum hub:

20h9hc0.jpg


From outer edge to outer edge, 95mm:

2iagcd5.jpg


Inner to inner, 59mm

15ho1t5.jpg


Bearing width, 16.5mm:

j5cllj.jpg


Center-to-center distance should be somewhere around 75.5mm.

-Kurt
 
Something just dawned on me tonight...

EDIT: Scratch that. B-bodies used Bendix 4-piston calipers, not the Kelsey-Hayes design.

EDIT #2: Something else dawned on me: The Kelsey-Hayes calipers and the SSBCs appear to be the same exact thing. If you can get your hands on the SSBC backing plates ONLY, you should be able to pair a set of drum spindles with the SSBC backing plates and your existing calipers.

-Kurt
 
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