Ethanol

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ir3333

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Who use Petro Can 94 w/10% ethanol?
...does 10% ethanol affect your brass and rubber carb parts?
just read that in Jan. 2017 all fuels will be required to use at
least 5 % ethanol.
 
Who use Petro Can 94 w/10% ethanol?
...does 10% ethanol affect your brass and rubber carb parts?
just read that in Jan. 2017 all fuels will be required to use at
least 5 % ethanol.
Yes, from what I am told, it will also gum up carbs, and it will corrode innards of everything due to the weirdness of ethanol and how it absorbs water from the surrounding air and forms a big water/nasty junk at the bottom of the gas tank... No bueno!

It also kills fuel pumps that aren't designed to be used with ethanol (happened even in my 97 s10)...

I am not a scientist, but that's what I read : Ethanol gas starts oxidizing and going bad after 30-60 days, and turns to varnish-like gunk. Think what will happen in your carbs if that's true... I only use 100% gas all the time in my cars from the prior century...
 
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Burning E85...85% ethanol in race cars...has rubber line steel braided hose...using it about 5 yrs...using same electric pump that we used for gas....I have E85 since for 6 months and used it in the race car.....
 
nothing...85 ethanol 15 regular unleaded gas.
 
have 3 cars on E-85
end of season (oct) close vent on fuel cell
run a hose, connecting both bowl vents
Feb-March open vents > go racing

Last week opened Holley for a jet change
bowl is as clean as day one...( carb 3 years old)
 
have 3 cars on E-85
end of season (oct) close vent on fuel cell
run a hose, connecting both bowl vents
Feb-March open vents > go racing

Last week opened Holley for a jet change
bowl is as clean as day one...( carb 3 years old)
Interesting... So, all of the info on ethanol I've read is a lie? Where does the truth lie then? (Not being sarcastic, actually I am curious...)
 
Interesting... So, all of the info on ethanol I've read is a lie? Where does the truth lie then? (Not being sarcastic, actually I am curious...)
maybe it has more to do with climate (humidity)
2 fuel cells are aluminum, can see the bottom > always look clean

When I first started using E-85 I was told it would eat the foam baffles in the tank
a pulled a piece out, put in in a jar of E-85 > looked the same after 2 years

All my carbs are from Mark Sullens,
2 950hp and a Dominator
I will have to ask if he uses special e-85 seals and gaskets
I use all braided steel fuel lines
pumps are holley 350, dominator 250, and a Magnaflow 350
 
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Who use Petro Can 94 w/10% ethanol?
...does 10% ethanol affect your brass and rubber carb parts?
just read that in Jan. 2017 all fuels will be required to use at
least 5 % ethanol.

I use petrocan 94 with 10% ethanol. I run it cause I have iron heads with 10:1 compression. I don't nessecarily NEED it. I'm sure my car would run fine on 91. I just prefer the extra few octane points. Little extra detonation prevention.

No problems whatsoever. I have no buildup or problems with it in the carb (my carb has other problems however). No problems with it in my lines. My filters. My hoses. Etc etc.

Any of those "myths" about Ethanol gas are just that. Myths. I think some may have come from the methanol world. I worked with methanol race cars (sprint cars mainly). And yes. Methanol eats hoses. And foam in tanks. It will eat through the bladder. It will eat o rings and whatever else. You do have to drain your race car at the end of the night. But Ethanol is not Methanol. I've yet to have ANY of those problems. At all. And I've been running it in every fill up for three years.

Here's what really happens with Ethanol. You get less mileage. Ethanol has 33% less energy than gasoline. Which means to get the same power, you burn 33% more. BUT with that comes a TON of octane. E85 has a 100-105 octane rating. If you buy from a direct supplier (like most race guys do) it will come at a guaranteed octane rating. How much would race gas with 100-105 octane rating cost? Add on top of that the extra cooling of ethanol. Cooler intake charge, with higher octane rating, means incredible knock reduction. There are guys playing with 14:1 (and higher) street engines on E85 right now. That's incredible to me.
 
I use petrocan 94 with 10% ethanol. I run it cause I have iron heads with 10:1 compression. I don't nessecarily NEED it. I'm sure my car would run fine on 91. I just prefer the extra few octane points. Little extra detonation prevention.

No problems whatsoever. I have no buildup or problems with it in the carb (my carb has other problems however). No problems with it in my lines. My filters. My hoses. Etc etc.

Any of those "myths" about Ethanol gas are just that. Myths. I think some may have come from the methanol world. I worked with methanol race cars (sprint cars mainly). And yes. Methanol eats hoses. And foam in tanks. It will eat through the bladder. It will eat o rings and whatever else. You do have to drain your race car at the end of the night. But Ethanol is not Methanol. I've yet to have ANY of those problems. At all. And I've been running it in every fill up for three years.

Here's what really happens with Ethanol. You get less mileage. Ethanol has 33% less energy than gasoline. Which means to get the same power, you burn 33% more. BUT with that comes a TON of octane. E85 has a 100-105 octane rating. If you buy from a direct supplier (like most race guys do) it will come at a guaranteed octane rating. How much would race gas with 100-105 octane rating cost? Add on top of that the extra cooling of ethanol. Cooler intake charge, with higher octane rating, means incredible knock reduction. There are guys playing with 14:1 (and higher) street engines on E85 right now. That's incredible to me.

All my engines are over 14-1
My 72 Dart is closer to 15-1 (540)
Talking to Mark Sullens, he says E-85 loves compression (e-85 is a slow burner)
 
Great info Lustle!
I have been considering trying Petro Can 94 for the benefit of detonation protection.
 
I use petrocan 94 with 10% ethanol. I run it cause I have iron heads with 10:1 compression. I don't nessecarily NEED it. I'm sure my car would run fine on 91. I just prefer the extra few octane points. Little extra detonation prevention.

No problems whatsoever. I have no buildup or problems with it in the carb (my carb has other problems however). No problems with it in my lines. My filters. My hoses. Etc etc.

Any of those "myths" about Ethanol gas are just that. Myths. I think some may have come from the methanol world. I worked with methanol race cars (sprint cars mainly). And yes. Methanol eats hoses. And foam in tanks. It will eat through the bladder. It will eat o rings and whatever else. You do have to drain your race car at the end of the night. But Ethanol is not Methanol. I've yet to have ANY of those problems. At all. And I've been running it in every fill up for three years.

Here's what really happens with Ethanol. You get less mileage. Ethanol has 33% less energy than gasoline. Which means to get the same power, you burn 33% more. BUT with that comes a TON of octane. E85 has a 100-105 octane rating. If you buy from a direct supplier (like most race guys do) it will come at a guaranteed octane rating. How much would race gas with 100-105 octane rating cost? Add on top of that the extra cooling of ethanol. Cooler intake charge, with higher octane rating, means incredible knock reduction. There are guys playing with 14:1 (and higher) street engines on E85 right now. That's incredible to me.
I just pulled this from wikipedia :
"Disadvantages to ethanol fuel blends when used in engines designed exclusively for gasoline include lowered fuel mileage, metal corrosion, deterioration of plastic and rubber fuel system components, clogged fuel systems, fuel injectors, and carburetors, delamination of composite fuel tanks, varnish buildup on engine parts, damaged or destroyed internal engine components, water absorption, fuel phase separation, and shortened fuel storage life.[155][155][156][157] Many major auto, marine, motorcycle, lawn equipment, generator, and other internal combustion engine manufacturers have issued warnings and precautions about the use of ethanol-blended gasolines of any type in their engines,[158] and the Federal Aviation Administration and major aviation engine manufacturers have prohibited the use of automotive gasolines blended with ethanol in light aircraft due to safety issues from fuel system and engine damage"... Doesn't sound like a myth to me...
 
maybe it has more to do with climate (humidity)
2 fuel cells are aluminum, can see the bottom > always look clean

When I first started using E-85 I was told it would eat the foam baffles in the tank
a pulled a piece out, put in in a jar of E-85 > looked the same after 2 years

All my carbs are from Mark Sullens,
2 950hp and a Dominator
I will have to ask if he uses special e-85 seals and gaskets
I use all braided steel fuel lines
pumps are holley 350, dominator 250, and a Magnaflow 350
Also, my gas tank on my Dart is original configuration, so it has vents that are always open. If I used ethanol gas, being a water absorber, it would soak up water from the air and form large water deposits inside it... Sound logic, isn't it?
 
I just pulled this from wikipedia :
"Disadvantages to ethanol fuel blends when used in engines designed exclusively for gasoline include lowered fuel mileage, metal corrosion, deterioration of plastic and rubber fuel system components, clogged fuel systems, fuel injectors, and carburetors, delamination of composite fuel tanks, varnish buildup on engine parts, damaged or destroyed internal engine components, water absorption, fuel phase separation, and shortened fuel storage life.[155][155][156][157] Many major auto, marine, motorcycle, lawn equipment, generator, and other internal combustion engine manufacturers have issued warnings and precautions about the use of ethanol-blended gasolines of any type in their engines,[158] and the Federal Aviation Administration and major aviation engine manufacturers have prohibited the use of automotive gasolines blended with ethanol in light aircraft due to safety issues from fuel system and engine damage"... Doesn't sound like a myth to me...

Let's keep the internet out of this and just let the guys using it tell us what they have found.I have been led down the garden path too many times by the internet.
 
I am curious
went to the shop
found the fuel soaked baffle piece, going on 3 years
still looks like day one, no particles
also poured another jar,,,lid off
been raining for 4 days (2" rain)
gonna be foggy tonight, then rain again
will see if it looks like watered down Shine in a few days, before it evaporates

SAM_4419.JPG
 
All my engines are over 14-1
My 72 Dart is closer to 15-1 (540)
Talking to Mark Sullens, he says E-85 loves compression (e-85 is a slow burner)

Exactly. 14:1 in a street motor is outstanding in my book.

I've HEARD of some guys playing with 17:1 compression on E85 and still not running into real detonation troubles. Don't know if it's true or not. But if it is. That's unreal. Sprint cars on 100% methanol run 16:1-18:1 depending on the race and how hard they wanna beat the piss out of the thing. So to run 17:1 on easily available gas just sounds awesome to me.

Great info Lustle!
I have been considering trying Petro Can 94 for the benefit of detonation protection.

Try it out. A tank isn't going to hurt anything.

Another thing I forgot to mention is the whole "ethanol sucks up water from the air" thing. This one is SORT of a myth. Methanol does this. And you do have to be careful with how you store and how LONG you store it. We only ever kept 3 -1000L totes full at a time. With how quickly we went through fuel. Atmosphere was never a huge concern. Ethanol also does this. But here's the thing. How quickly does it suck up water? It takes over 3 months for properly stored pure ethanol to absorb all the water it can. So obviously any blended stuff will take a lot longer. Not only that. But if you are storing any gasoline (including non-blended) for that kind of time. You should be adding a fuel stabilizer to it anyways. It's common sense stuff.

I just pulled this from wikipedia :
"Disadvantages to ethanol fuel blends when used in engines designed exclusively for gasoline include lowered fuel mileage, metal corrosion, deterioration of plastic and rubber fuel system components, clogged fuel systems, fuel injectors, and carburetors, delamination of composite fuel tanks, varnish buildup on engine parts, damaged or destroyed internal engine components, water absorption, fuel phase separation, and shortened fuel storage life.[155][155][156][157] Many major auto, marine, motorcycle, lawn equipment, generator, and other internal combustion engine manufacturers have issued warnings and precautions about the use of ethanol-blended gasolines of any type in their engines,[158] and the Federal Aviation Administration and major aviation engine manufacturers have prohibited the use of automotive gasolines blended with ethanol in light aircraft due to safety issues from fuel system and engine damage"... Doesn't sound like a myth to me...

Ethanol is a solvent. Even in 10% blend. It's going to have a solvent effect. So if you pour a bunch of 10% ethanol gas in a shitty rusty gas tank, with lines full of gunk. Guess what? All that rust and stuff get's lifted and goes through your system. Is that the gas' fault for cleaning the system you didn't clean? Nope.

Did you actually read the sources that are cited? The 155 source cited, a consumer reports article, is a good example of a myth. Here's a direct quote:
"The photo shows how ethanol could impact the carburetor of a small gas engine; the white, crusty film is apparently caused by the ethanol."

HOW. COULD. APPARENTLY.

AKA they don't know. But it's easy to blame ethanol. Never mind that maybe that carburetor had never been cleaned. Or the fuel system. Did they inspect the carb before and after running ethanol? Did they clean the system before and after? No? Oh ok. Still perfectly valid test though.

They then go on to say that engines that had never previously ran ethanol. Had certain ethanol blends run through them. And to their surprise, they didn't run well! Well. Yes. Of course. You just changed the type of fuel without tuning it, and it didn't run well. Somebody call Captain Obvious.

How about source 157? William Maloney. First off. It's just a website that he wrote. With only his own experiences and second hand stories "from a neighbor" on it. No independent testing. No verification of facts. But there is this tidbit:

"I personally had an auto engine damaged where I left the fuel in for over a year. It started fine, I got it tuned and running well and shut it down. The varnished fuel hardened on the intake valves and when I started it again the next day the valves stuck and all hell broke loose. 4 pushrods were bent and two lifters were broken. All valve guides were worn to a long bell shape on the inside from the wear of the hardened varnish and had to be sleeved."

I'm sorry. But if you let a vehicle sit with fuel in it for OVER A YEAR, without any kind of stabilizer. And then you go to fire it up without any fresh gas? But no wait. It started fine. Took a tune and was running well. But definitely that bad gas that somehow magically ran well that turned into varnish overnight. Yeah. If it was actually varnish bud, that engine never would have started up. I got no help for guys like that.

At least read the sources before you cite them.

Also, my gas tank on my Dart is original configuration, so it has vents that are always open. If I used ethanol gas, being a water absorber, it would soak up water from the air and form large water deposits inside it... Sound logic, isn't it?

Ok so I mentioned this above. But pure Ethanol takes 3+ months to absorb all the water it can. Blended will obviously take longer. As gasoline itself does not absorb gasoline. Do you take 3 months to go through a tank? Even assuming you do. Realize that 10% ethanol gas absorbs .05% of water at 60F. That's an extremely low amount. Not "large water deposits". That mixes with the gasoline/ethanol blend and is burned harmlessly by your engine. Just like all the other water floating in the air when it's raining out, or when it's extremely humid.

So yes. There is logic in your thinking. Just gotta follow that logic through to the end.
 
all the fast crate motor dirt racers useing E85 with great results for years! stuff runs way cooler as there carburetors and top of there intakes are cold and collect condensation almost frosted after 25 or 30 laps! in them bout stock GM 604 n 602 motors thay clam rattman E85 produces the highest hp on the dyno!
 
I can tell you from first hand experience. I rebuilt the 600 Edelbrock on my 69 Dart because it was not running good, ( turned out to be from Ethanol in my gas). the inside of my carb looked nasty. None the less I soaked it rebuilt it and was running good again. After driving it to a car show I put it back in the garage and time got away from me and it sat three months before I went to drive it again. Well it ran like crap again so i pulled the carb off,took it apart and I couldn't believe that I just had rebuilt it 3 months prior to this! It was full of corrosion and crap, it looked like it had been sitting for 10 years not three months! That was it, done with ethanol/gas mix. Now I run only Ethanol free and have not had another problem. This is my experience with 10% ethanol.
 
I have lots of experience with small engines like lawn mowers and boat motors getting very gummed up due to ethanol gas.

I have used pure gas and left it in my pressure washer and lawn mower for long periods of time and had no problem with this...

10% ethanol has gummed up a weed wacker over the winter storage, and pure gas has not.

This is experiential evidence to me that ethanol gums motors up.

I used the wikipedia article just to show that it is very common knowledge (or at least commonly thought) that ethanol causes extreme corrosion in many circumstances and situations... That's all.

Because it seemed as if you guys' racing experience was trying to say that there was no problem whatsoever with ethanol for other people's carbs.
 
theres a difference in regular pump ethanol blended gas from gas station and ethanol blended race gas,..big big difference!
 
So is it safe to say ethanol can be a problem if you
..neglect your fuel system
..use ethanol blends in older engines in poor state of repair,
..leave untreated fuel for long periods of time?
..fuel stabilizers /additives will prevent ethanol,water and corrosion issues for
storage
..if your system is in good repair and you gas up every two or three weeks you
won't have any problems
 
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I can tell you from first hand experience. I rebuilt the 600 Edelbrock on my 69 Dart because it was not running good, ( turned out to be from Ethanol in my gas). the inside of my carb looked nasty. None the less I soaked it rebuilt it and was running good again. After driving it to a car show I put it back in the garage and time got away from me and it sat three months before I went to drive it again. Well it ran like crap again so i pulled the carb off,took it apart and I couldn't believe that I just had rebuilt it 3 months prior to this! It was full of corrosion and crap, it looked like it had been sitting for 10 years not three months! That was it, done with ethanol/gas mix. Now I run only Ethanol free and have not had another problem. This is my experience with 10% ethanol.
Did you put any additives in your gas to counterbalance the negative effects of ethanol? Just wondering... I am curious if ethanol is still quite corrosive and easily oxidized with Stabil or the like in it...
 
Did you put any additives in your gas to counterbalance the negative effects of ethanol? Just wondering... I am curious if ethanol is still quite corrosive and easily oxidized with Stabil or the like in it...
Yes , I was adding Stabil and another brand of enzyme. I tried Lucas gas treatment also. As long as I can get non ethanol gas, that is what I will use.
 
I gotta wonder if it's the ethanol gas causing stuff to gum up? Or people letting it sit in tanks/lines and all the rust and dirt it breaks free getting sucked into the carb does it.

I've let my car sit for several months with Husky 94 10% ethanol and had ZERO problems with it. Starts up. Runs fine. Carb looks fine. It sat from November to March this year. With maybe one startup a month if it was decently above 0. And I had absolutely no problems with it.

I know other guys who run it who have had none of the problems you guys list. Might be the quality of the fuel. But I don't chalk it up to just the ethanol.
 
I gotta wonder if it's the ethanol gas causing stuff to gum up? Or people letting it sit in tanks/lines and all the rust and dirt it breaks free getting sucked into the carb does it.

I've let my car sit for several months with Husky 94 10% ethanol and had ZERO problems with it. Starts up. Runs fine. Carb looks fine. It sat from November to March this year. With maybe one startup a month if it was decently above 0. And I had absolutely no problems with it.

I know other guys who run it who have had none of the problems you guys list. Might be the quality of the fuel. But I don't chalk it up to just the ethanol.
That is why I made a point to state in post 18, that this is my personal experience. All I know is with non ethanol, I have no problems. Just like before they started mixing ethanol with gas years ago. It's obvious some people have their mind made up already.
 
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