Suspension Options?

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Eirn Koon

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Hello, I am new to the forum and I just recently became the proud owner of a 65 Barracuda with a 273 V8 4bl. I am wondering what my options are for suspension conversions for the vehicle? the torsion bar set up leaves a little to be desired. I am looking to free up space under the vehicle to eventually run better exhaust/engine upgrade. Is there another A-body that I can transfer parts from, or am I stuck at dropping big bucks for custom components/Lots of fabrication time? Any information would be greatly appreciated.

P.S. If there has been a discussion on this and I missed it please direct me where to go - Thanks
 
Hello, I am new to the forum and I just recently became the proud owner of a 65 Barracuda with a 273 V8 4bl. I am wondering what my options are for suspension conversions for the vehicle? the torsion bar set up leaves a little to be desired. I am looking to free up space under the vehicle to eventually run better exhaust/engine upgrade. Is there another A-body that I can transfer parts from, or am I stuck at dropping big bucks for custom components/Lots of fabrication time? Any information would be greatly appreciated.

P.S. If there has been a discussion on this and I missed it please direct me where to go - Thanks
Check out Gerst Suspensions, very good kit.

Short of a complete coilnover conversion which costs a lot(stay away from the cheap ones like AJE, they're cheap for a reason and that equals failures)

There are only 3 coil over conversions I'd trust at all.

Gerst Suspensions aka GTS
Reilly Motorsports aka RMS
Hemidenny aka HDK

My suggestion is to call each of them, all are good guys and have years of quality products speaking for themselves. But be prepared to shell out between 2500-5000 for one of their kits. But when you add up the costs of upgrading the factory torsion bars, other suspension components and quality shocks etc, it's not much more depending on brand and you still have the room issues or lack there of .
 
HemiDenny rack and pinion conversion - do a search and there ought to be numerous threads on it.

EDIT: BTW, welcome to the forum!
 
Welcome from commiefornia!

Check out Firm Feel and talk to their suspension guy. Torsion bars ain't all that bad.

There is also PST.
 
Hello, I am new to the forum and I just recently became the proud owner of a 65 Barracuda with a 273 V8 4bl. I am wondering what my options are for suspension conversions for the vehicle? the torsion bar set up leaves a little to be desired. I am looking to free up space under the vehicle to eventually run better exhaust/engine upgrade. Is there another A-body that I can transfer parts from, or am I stuck at dropping big bucks for custom components/Lots of fabrication time? Any information would be greatly appreciated.

P.S. If there has been a discussion on this and I missed it please direct me where to go - Thanks

You mentioned that you don't want to spend big bucks, so this may not be of interest to you, but it's another option if anyone else might be looking for a good chassis overhaul. Hot Rod Chassis and Cycle installed a set of their Fabricator Series frame rails in my '65 Barracuda. These enable the use of Detroit Speed's "AlumaFrame" coilover front suspension and steering setup with tubular control arms, anti-roll bar, and easy caster/camber adjustability.
front subframe.jpg
 
The T-bar suspension, was cutting edge at it's introduction. Nearly 60 years later it is still being copied.

Fitting headers may not be a bolt-in deal, but most 273s don't need long-tube headers anyway . It takes a pretty big cam in a 273 to really need long-tubes.
If I had a first-gen barracuda V8 and thought it needed long-tubes, I would fabricate them before I would swap away the T-bar suspension.Or I would pay someone to make the popular brand ones fit. I mean prices for those aftermarket set-ups, after all is said and done
are way out of my budget.
In Canuck bucks, they are about equivalent to 670 hours of wages to me.To me, that represents a half a year's wages.
I don't know how many sets of hand-made headers I could fabricate in 670 hours, but I bet it would be more than 1.
 
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The T-bar suspension, was cutting edge at it's introduction. Nearly 60 years later it is still being copied.

Fitting headers may not be a bolt-in deal, but most 273s don't need long-tube headers anyway . It takes a pretty big cam in a 273 to really need long-tubes.
If I had a first-gen barracuda V8 and thought it needed long-tubes, I would fabricate them before I would swap away the T-bar suspension.Or I would pay someone to make the popular brand ones fit. I mean prices for those aftermarket set-ups, after all is said and done
are way out of my budget.
In Canuck bucks, they are about equivalent to 670 hours of wages to me.To me, that represents a half a year's wages.
I don't know how many sets of hand-made headers I could fabricate in 670 hours, but I bet it would be more than 1.

Yep, T-bars have a lot of good attributes--low center of gravity and simplicity being two important ones. Bad points include space intrusion and lack of spring rate adjustment without changing out the bars. My boat trailer has t-bar suspension, and it rides like a dream. If you have the talent to fabricate the headers, AND if you select primary tube size and length, collector configuration, and secondary size and length properly, you can certainly achieve better scavenging than 99% of the manufactured headers out there. Unfortunately, with my skill set, it would probably take me more than 670 hours to do it right!
 
I know a guy running 10 seconds in the quarter in a 65 Barracuda. 360 Auto with large tube TTI's. He is usually in the racing forum. Looked like they fit no problem.
 
I wouldn't say they are inferior.

I don't like them. I like the even rates and adjustability, not to mention longevity of torsion bars. Everybody is different, but to me that is the huge plus of Chrysler cars.
 
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Everything you need to have a modern handling torsion bar suspension.

1.03 PST torsion bars -------------------------------$263 (you could go bigger here too, 1.06", 1.12" etc, but for an early A you wouldn't need to unless you're going to autoX)
Tubular UCA’s (PST, FFI, etc)------------------------$350
Adjustable strut rods (PST SR 14385)---------------$279
Solid tie rod sleeves (PST SAS 440S)----------------$49
LCA boxing plate (PST LCAPLTMOP621)-------------$14.50
Greasable LCA pins (FFI w bushings)----------------$135

Helwig tubular front sway bar 1 1/8” #55905 (73+ K)--$175
(#55917 for 67-72 K and large tires --- $263)
Solid rear 3/4” #6907--------------------------------$237

Mopar oval track springs
Zero arch- P4529414---------------------------------------------$232
1" arch- P4529415

Energy suspension 1" shackle bushings 2-2117G----$9

Bilstein RCD shocks(RCD-70-56663)------------------$410

Grand total on that is about $2,200, that's got a little extra built in depending on where you shop.

From there you can add a Borgeson power steering box kit for $859 from Peter Bergman, or a Flaming River 16:1 manual box for $635, or even a brand new 24:1 manual steering box from P-S-T for $419. Still all worm gear units, but they wouldn't be worn out.

Finally, you'd want to address your brakes. The reason they aren't included above is, well, they aren't included in the RMS price tag either. That's $5k and you still have to buy brakes on top of that! Anyway, you can get a 73+ 10.95" mopar disk kit from Dr. Diff for about $530 depending on your options in the kit. That includes spindles, bearings, calipers, hoses, lower ball joints, pretty much everything you need. And all OE type parts, so, you can buy parts anywhere.

So, if you add all that up with the most expensive steering option, the borgeson power steering kit, you get about $3,600. BUT, that's the front suspension, steering, brakes, shocks AND rear suspension. Not just the front, and not the front without brakes. And you could still do it cheaper, use moog k7103 offset bushings and tapered adaptors and keep your stock UCA's, use your current steering box, etc.

As far as coilovers vs torsion bars, I've said it plenty. Springs are springs, shocks are shocks. Coilovers are nice because they still have more spring rates available and they open up some space for headers, the biggest advantage to the conversions is still the rack and pinion. But, they raise the CG of the suspension parts and put loads on the chassis in places that it was not designed to carry suspension loads. So IMO you must strengthen the chassis, and specifically the front (inner fender braces, J-bars, etc). Torsion bar suspension is still widely used, from semi-trucks to the new Ford GT supercar (yup!). It allows for easy ride height adjustability, a low center of gravity, and it keeps the suspension loads in the K frame and crossmember where the chassis was designed to carry them. Plus, the market for shocks has improved dramatically in just the last couple of years, and you can get a pretty decent selection of spring rates from all the torsion bars out there now. The steering box is probably the biggest drawback, the space isn't that big of deal if you just get a set of TTI's or Doug's. Yeah initial install is a pain, but, unless you're constantly pulling your engine or dropping your headers it's not an everyday kind of problem.
 
Everything you need to have a modern handling torsion bar suspension.

1.03 PST torsion bars -------------------------------$263 (you could go bigger here too, 1.06", 1.12" etc, but for an early A you wouldn't need to unless you're going to autoX)
Tubular UCA’s (PST, FFI, etc)------------------------$350
Adjustable strut rods (PST SR 14385)---------------$279
Solid tie rod sleeves (PST SAS 440S)----------------$49
LCA boxing plate (PST LCAPLTMOP621)-------------$14.50
Greasable LCA pins (FFI w bushings)----------------$135

Helwig tubular front sway bar 1 1/8” #55905 (73+ K)--$175
(#55917 for 67-72 K and large tires --- $263)
Solid rear 3/4” #6907--------------------------------$237

Mopar oval track springs
Zero arch- P4529414---------------------------------------------$232
1" arch- P4529415

Energy suspension 1" shackle bushings 2-2117G----$9

Bilstein RCD shocks(RCD-70-56663)------------------$410

Grand total on that is about $2,200, that's got a little extra built in depending on where you shop.

From there you can add a Borgeson power steering box kit for $859 from Peter Bergman, or a Flaming River 16:1 manual box for $635, or even a brand new 24:1 manual steering box from P-S-T for $419. Still all worm gear units, but they wouldn't be worn out.

Finally, you'd want to address your brakes. The reason they aren't included above is, well, they aren't included in the RMS price tag either. That's $5k and you still have to buy brakes on top of that! Anyway, you can get a 73+ 10.95" mopar disk kit from Dr. Diff for about $530 depending on your options in the kit. That includes spindles, bearings, calipers, hoses, lower ball joints, pretty much everything you need. And all OE type parts, so, you can buy parts anywhere.

So, if you add all that up with the most expensive steering option, the borgeson power steering kit, you get about $3,600. BUT, that's the front suspension, steering, brakes, shocks AND rear suspension. Not just the front, and not the front without brakes. And you could still do it cheaper, use moog k7103 offset bushings and tapered adaptors and keep your stock UCA's, use your current steering box, etc.

As far as coilovers vs torsion bars, I've said it plenty. Springs are springs, shocks are shocks. Coilovers are nice because they still have more spring rates available and they open up some space for headers, the biggest advantage to the conversions is still the rack and pinion. But, they raise the CG of the suspension parts and put loads on the chassis in places that it was not designed to carry suspension loads. So IMO you must strengthen the chassis, and specifically the front (inner fender braces, J-bars, etc). Torsion bar suspension is still widely used, from semi-trucks to the new Ford GT supercar (yup!). It allows for easy ride height adjustability, a low center of gravity, and it keeps the suspension loads in the K frame and crossmember where the chassis was designed to carry them. Plus, the market for shocks has improved dramatically in just the last couple of years, and you can get a pretty decent selection of spring rates from all the torsion bars out there now. The steering box is probably the biggest drawback, the space isn't that big of deal if you just get a set of TTI's or Doug's. Yeah initial install is a pain, but, unless you're constantly pulling your engine or dropping your headers it's not an everyday kind of problem.

I agree--most of the coilover type setups place a lot of forces on chassis points that were definitely not designed for those forces. Most of them are probably fine for drag racing, but I would definitely want some significant modifications extending back beyond the trans crossmember for any long-term street duty or road course work.
 
Thanks you guys This is all really helpful! I'll be quite honest and tell you all I'm a lot greener in the area of classic cars than I'd like to admit so all this information is a ton of help. Thanks a lot 72bluNblu, It's really awesome of you to give all that information and pricing and I really appreciate all your insights on the suspension. I definitely need to start filling my piggy bank and start buying.
 
Nice thread and well debated as always on A-bods!

Well done 72Blu for a very specific detailing of the front suspension and its prices.

I'm getting a 72 Duster with NO front suspension 'at all' so its a clear 'playing field' for the rebuild!
Stock or upgrades, maybe even 'coil-overs' but the chassis is designed for 'torsion-bars' as we all know lol.
 
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