Anybody running the RMS AlterKation? Was it really worth the cost?

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After driving my 340-powered '66 Valiant (with 6-cylinder torsion bars!) from 1972 to '77, then swapping the 340 into my '65 Barracuda and driving that one with torsion bars until 2015, I looked at all possibilities, including all the brands mentioned in this thread as well as a complete upgrade of the torsion bar setup. There are a lot of great features of the T-bar system, but ultimately my decision to go with a 3rd gen hemi was the deciding factor in my suspension choice. We are not quite there yet, but I will be interested to see what happens. I am using Detroit Speed's "Alumaframe" system; this one is designed for an early Mustang, but with new frame rails by Hot Rod Chassis and Cycle, it mounts like it was born there, and nobody has to know I have Ford parts. Super easy caster/camber adjustment, and plenty of room for the aluminum 433 hemi and headers!
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Very interesting build! Do you have a thread we could follow this build on?
 
Very interesting build! Do you have a thread we could follow this build on?
I haven't started one because I'm not doing the work myself this time, and most (if not all) of the people with build threads on FABO are doing their own work. I don't want to present myself as having the skills, equipment, and time to build this version of my car, because I don't. However, now that we are getting closer to the finished product, I think the progress will probably be adequate to post often enough that it will be interesting. Here's what it looks like this week.
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That is one beautiful suspension package.....I bet it is not cheap, but what is? Do you plan on re-fitting your factory sheetmetal (firewall, inner fenders, etc) back on.?

Gonna be a sweet early A.
 
I haven't started one because I'm not doing the work myself this time, and most (if not all) of the people with build threads on FABO are doing their own work. I don't want to present myself as having the skills, equipment, and time to build this version of my car, because I don't. However, now that we are getting closer to the finished product, I think the progress will probably be adequate to post often enough that it will be interesting. Here's what it looks like this week.View attachment 1715044804
Well I would still like to see you post the work even if you are not doing it, it's still your build...it certainly looks like one of the more interesting car we have on the site.
 
That is one beautiful suspension package.....I bet it is not cheap, but what is? Do you plan on re-fitting your factory sheetmetal (firewall, inner fenders, etc) back on.?

Gonna be a sweet early A.

Yeah, the suspension setup wasn't cheap, but considering the fabrication time saved, it might be close to a wash compared to the original plan. I had already bought C7 Corvette components, but sent them back when the Detroit Speed system became a possibility. Oh well, my Mopar was going to be part Chevy, but now it will be part Ford.

All sheet metal will be new. The old fenderwell headers had taken a big piece out of the inner fenders. The firewall was perfect, but the new engine placement called for a new smooth piece. Floor was perfect also, but it was cut out along with the trunk floor to make room for the full frame, roll cage, and independent rear suspension.
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I'm looking forward to doing a chassis car one day, no limits on suspension, tire size, engine placement etc... just drop on the body
 
I'm looking forward to doing a chassis car one day, no limits on suspension, tire size, engine placement etc... just drop on the body
Yeah, I didn't start out that way, but I ordered a new Hellcat engine two years ago, and that kinda set the direction for the build. By the time it became apparent that there was no guarantee of a delivery date for the Hellcat motor and I got my money back, I was too far along to go back to something more conventional. No regrets though--my dyno numbers were 641 hp, 595 ft-lb, which should improve after a little tweaking by Hilborn and MoTec, and I will be a couple of hundred pounds lighter on the front end than I would have been with the Hellcat. I don't think I will catch too much grief for cutting up this car--hey, it was a 273 two-barrel car with an automatic. Besides, I drove it for almost 40 years with the 340, so I think I should be entitled to do whatever I want with it now.
 
Yeah, the suspension setup wasn't cheap, but considering the fabrication time saved, it might be close to a wash compared to the original plan. I had already bought C7 Corvette components, but sent them back when the Detroit Speed system became a possibility. Oh well, my Mopar was going to be part Chevy, but now it will be part Ford.

All sheet metal will be new. The old fenderwell headers had taken a big piece out of the inner fenders. The firewall was perfect, but the new engine placement called for a new smooth piece. Floor was perfect also, but it was cut out along with the trunk floor to make room for the full frame, roll cage, and independent rear suspension.View attachment 1715044879
:eek: WOW!!! That's one impressive build for sure!!!
 
Yup, no such test exists yet. And really, it would have to be the same car. Too many variables otherwise, chassis stiffening, ride height, 40+ years of wear and tear on the chassis (rust, damage, etc). Even with different cars that were the same make and model you could still have more than enough differences beyond the suspension to make an across the board comparison problematic.

There is this article though, for the muscle car of the year shootout hot rod did in 2013. Wracks71's fully RMS equipped Duster and the Hotchkis Taxi both took part, and you can see who had the fastest time. Hint, it was the 1970 4 door Satellite with torsion bars and leaf springs. Now, it's not a true comparison. Different drivers, different cars, different tires, just too many variables for it to be a valid comparison of suspensions. The only thing you can take out of it is that going fully coilover may not make you faster than a torsion bar/leaf spring car. Really though, you can't get past that. Even if you showed that one suspension system was better in certain performance situations it would be no guarantee that any one person/car would be faster with the "better" suspension.

2013 Muscle Car of the Year - Popular Hot Rodding Magazine





Yeah the 328's aren't a slouch. And a second per lap with the same driver and same tires is significant. Not the end-all-be-all though of course. Especially with autoX and road race cars it really depends on the track. You can set up an autoX course where miata's will kill corvette's all day long and not have it even be close, and then turn around and put them on a different course and have the 'vette's make the miata's look silly. Which comes right back to all suspension design and set up is a compromise.



Converting to the RMS just for the steering rack is a pretty big expense. You don't have to buy rebuilt boxes anymore. You can go Borgeson and ditch the original design power box all together. Heck I run a brand new Flaming River manual box, and that was a big improvement.



Also true. Of course, the problem with comparing roll centers, camber curves, roll axis, CG etc on a torsion bar car is that you can change most of those just by lowering the car an inch with the torsion bar adjusters. Or by running FMJ instead of A-body spindles, although Mopar Muscle did that comparison for roll center, bump steer and camber curves. Swapping Disc-Brake Spindles - Mopar Muscle Magazine. But yeah, at that level of analysis you'd find differences even from one torsion bar suspended car to another, especially if you start throwing adjustable UCA's and strut rods around.

I wonder if anyone has gotten some back to back seat time between a prepped car with a borgeson box and an Alterkation car. Personally, my main grip with the basic handling feel in my car is the sloppy/overpowered steering. And I wonder if losing that sloppyness is what impresses the people who switch?
 
Yeah that's going to be nice..... just make sure you drive it after it's done, to many fix up their old cars and hide them in the garage.
I'm really liking those 5 spoke wheels which are usually not my thing.
If you see my car on a trailer, please call the authorities, because someone has stolen it. It is being set up for road racing, but will be a street car, with a/c, stereo, maybe even a cup holder. I don't mind the more contemporary multi-spoke wheels on most cars, but I think mine really needs the massive five-spoke look. I am somewhat limited in wheel choices that will clear the Alcon Brakes and provide the necessary strength, but I think I have narrowed it down to the Americans in the rendering or a similar 5-spoke Forgeline.
 
I wonder if anyone has gotten some back to back seat time between a prepped car with a borgeson box and an Alterkation car. Personally, my main grip with the basic handling feel in my car is the sloppy/overpowered steering. And I wonder if losing that sloppyness is what impresses the people who switch?

I think the biggest reason people swap is because they don't have any seat time in a torsion bar car that's been set up properly. People drive around with the stock worn out suspension, worn out steering, and a bad (stock) alignment and assume nothing that awful can be saved. And then they switch from worn out stock suspension to a coilover conversion and are amazed in the change. But really the difference between a rebuilt and properly set up torsion bar car and the coilover conversions is just as big.

The steering is really the one thing you can't replicate with the torsion bar set up. Even the Borgeson is a worm and recirculating ball steering box, so, it will not feel like rack and pinion steering. But that's all it is, feel. Performance wise it's just as capable.

But getting rid of the stock power steering makes a huge difference. Heck even just changing the amount of boost provided by the stock power steering makes a big difference, you can do that just by shimming the power steering pump valve to reduce the pressure a bit. On my Challenger, when I went to 275/40/17's up front and cranked the positive caster up to +5* it made a big difference in just the feel of the steering, even with the vaguely worn out stock steering box and no changes at all to the pressure it was much better. On my Duster the stock power steering box was actually pretty tight, just the standard over boosted feel. That one I swapped for a Flaming River 16:1 manual box. Night and day difference in steering feel. Yes, it still has that on-center spot that all worm and recirculating ball steering boxes have. That's just how they feel. But it doesn't effect performance. If you're used to driving a new car I can see how it might be annoying though.

Coilovers aren't magic, they're just springs and shocks. Now that the market has expanded so much for quality shocks for the torsion bar set ups it's a lot easier to match the larger torsion bars needed with a properly tuned shock, which beyond the rack and pinion was the other thing that the coilovers swaps had going for them. More options for tuning. But with the Hotchkis Fox adjustable and non-adjustable shocks, or the Viking adjustables, even the Bilstein's out there, the tuning options for the torsion bar set up has improved dramatically. The feel will be a little different, and all suspensions systems have their pro's and con's.
 
I have a car with an Alterktion, a car with a borgeson box, a car with a Firm Feel power box and a car with an original factory 16:1 manual box.... the real trick would be for me to have them all running the same day.....
 
I have a car with an Alterktion, a car with a borgeson box, a car with a Firm Feel power box and a car with an original factory 16:1 manual box.... the real trick would be for me to have them all running the same day.....
You better get on it! :poke:
 
You better get on it! :poke:
Well I was driving home one evening with a friend a few months ago and he suggested we go watch a couple of rounds at this years Drag Week..... that turned into let's enter...And that turned into I will build a low buck roadkill style car.... and here I am today...

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Don't you just love how it seems like anything you do on you car always snowballs to more? Like saying "Today I think I'll change spark plugs" and the next thing you know the whole car is in pieces?? Lol
 
Don't you just love how it seems like anything you do on you car always snowballs to more? Like saying "Today I think I'll change spark plugs" and the next thing you know the whole car is in pieces?? Lol
That's exactly what happened to me! As a friend of mine would say, I jacked up the radiator cap and installed a new car under it.
 
Don't you just love how it seems like anything you do on you car always snowballs to more? Like saying "Today I think I'll change spark plugs" and the next thing you know the whole car is in pieces?? Lol

Well the first few times it was funny, but it keeps happening....I think the law refers to it as recidivism..
 
I have owned Mopars with power steering and those with manual. We switched from manual to power in my son's Barracuda simply for the faster ratio, BUT we took a factory '80's cop car box and a factory '60's A-body box so that we could keep the steering linkage that we had. I built one box around the two. I set up all clearances precisely. That box never had any kind of sloppy feel.
 
I have owned Mopars with power steering and those with manual. We switched from manual to power in my son's Barracuda simply for the faster ratio, BUT we took a factory '80's cop car box and a factory '60's A-body box so that we could keep the steering linkage that we had. I built one box around the two. I set up all clearances precisely. That box never had any kind of sloppy feel.
Care to share ???? or find me at the Mopar alley show and share
 
Sure. It was actually simple. We wanted the valving from the cop box but wanted to keep the small sector shaft. We used the early case and sector shaft while putting the rest of the cop parts into the early case. I can't remember what the rebuild kit cost.
 
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