Structural Foam for chassis stiffening

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myduster360

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My brother got me thinking more about this and as a mechanical engineer, it peaked my interest. So I've been researching using expanding foam, in key areas of the chassis. Many OEMs already use several types of foams to reduce NVH, improve collision performance and stiffen the chassis. BWM even used rigid foam to "fix" their frame cracking from fatigue.

Looking at my 72 Swinger, it appears the rockers, along with the upper and lower A, B and C pillar joints would be perfect candidates for a rigid foam. Most foams are fairly lightweight(8lb/ft3) and somewhat benign in terms of "installation."

Just wondering is anyone thought of such a thing on their A-Body. I figured at the very least, the foam could help with NVH.

Here are 3 SAE papers I found from Chrysler, Mazda and GM testing the improvements of structural foam. The Mazda paper is quite interesting.

http://www.mwsmotorsports.com/z32/foam/MontanaFoam.pdf
http://www.mwsmotorsports.com/z32/foam/1999-01-1785.pdf
http://www.mwsmotorsports.com/z32/foam/2001-01-0313.pdf
 
I use it in large open areas in the body like between the rear quarters and wheel well area's.
It makes a good insulation/sound deadener, although I never considered it a stiffener.
I know it sure takes that "empty barrel" sound out of the doors and body, but you have to be a bit mindful of where it may hold puddles of water against the body metal.
If you pay attention to that you can use a stick or something and make a trough in it to allow water to be channeled away from places it likes to puddle to where it can drain out.

Dangit, I wasn't ever going to mention doing it because I didn't want to hear what the critics with no real world experience thought of it. :D
 
I looked into it when I was doing sound deadening. There is a body shop applicator than can put the 2 part mix into the voids for wreck repairs. The product was cheap. About $75-100 a tube and that's enough to do an entire car due to expansion. The special hand held gun to inject this was about $1200.

I even went a few local shops but none of them repair the foam, they just leave the voids empty.

Riddler
 
The only issue I would have with respect to any kind of foam in a street car is water/moisture absorption. In a race car it wouldn't matter so much but I live in a very corrosive and humid environment. I would never put anything in the frame or in any part that would be exposed to water (rain). It would be a death nail for my rust free Barracuda. But in some areas of the US you don't have to worry about that???
JMO
Treblig
 
I think it would reduce road noise and vibration some, but I'm not sure what you'd get out of it as far as chassis stiffening.

Reason being the adhesion to the chassis. To get a significant improvement in stiffness you need to have really good adhesion to the metal, and I'm not sure you'll get that adding structural foam to 40+ year old cars. There wasn't a lot of rust prevention going on with these cars, the inside of the structures usually have some surface flash rust even on really clean cars, not to mention dirt and debris that accumulates because not all the spaces you're talking about are fully sealed to the exterior of the car. If you've replaced crossmembers and things on these cars you know what I'm talking about, it's amazing how much dirt and rocks can get into the frame and crossmembers.

So, even with a high adhesion structural foam I'm not sure you'd get a good enough adhesion to the base metal and not just say, the surface rust. And then of course those interior structures aren't fully hollow either. Rockers, crossmembers, frame rails etc have stiffening plates located inside of them in certain locations (attachment points etc). Most have holes in them, but they might impede the foam from reaching certain areas inside the structures, and it might be difficult to check if you've gotten everything filled with foam.

Only other thing I would worry about is how the foam might trap moisture in some sections of the chassis. Especially if you didn't get great adhesion everywhere, it could tend to localize rust damage in areas that didn't get fully filled or adhered to the metal. You could get pockets of dirt/debris/moisture that could speed up localized rust damage.

Not a bad idea at all though. It definitely makes a big difference in new cars. Not sure retrofitting it would have all the same benefits though. Just thinking out loud, I read the papers and have seen its use in that engineering world but I'm no expert.
 
An icon in Pro Stock drag racing Bill "Grumpy" Jenkins used foam in his Vega Pro Stock . this started a trend which N.H.R.A. banned . The answer is : It works
 
An icon in Pro Stock drag racing Bill "Grumpy" Jenkins used foam in his Vega Pro Stock . this started a trend which N.H.R.A. banned . The answer is : It works

Gonna have to do better than that. Used foam where? What kind of foam? Why was it an advantage? Why was it banned? Racers will do anything to get an edge, sometimes at the expense of their safety (especially back then). You know, like acid dipping the TransAm series cars until one of them in particular was so thin it developed cracks and would dent if you leaned on it.
 
As a sound deadener or as an insulator, it seems like a viable option.
Regarding the structural characteristics, look at your refrigerator or freezer door. If it's less than 8 years old, likely it's made from .028" or thinner metal and then filled with foam. The fridge cabinet is likely .017" or thinner. It's very rigid and light weight.
The issue is the degree of engineering used to calculate precisely how the foam expands into the cavity and what the rate of expansion is. It's possible to over fill a cavity, and the expansion to bust at the seams.
While the chemicals and application may seem benign, the fact is that chemicals such as cyclopentane are extremely volatile.
My real world experience is that I sell over 90000 tons of steel a year to appliance manufacturers. That being said, I am in an appliance factory nearly every day and work with the engineers and manufacturing people who are using foam everyday. The design of the cavity, the flow and expansion rates are highly engineered and the chemicals can be dangerous. Adhesion rates are also carefully crafted and monitored.
There is likely wrong with using a bottled premixed product to insulate for heat, sound, vibration etc. My bet is the auto companies have put considerable time and resources into designing the application and end use to achieve desired results. Likely those techniques are not available to us as a viable and cost effective measure.
Just my opinion.
 
As a sound deadener or as an insulator, it seems like a viable option.
Regarding the structural characteristics, look at your refrigerator or freezer door. If it's less than 8 years old, likely it's made from .028" or thinner metal and then filled with foam. The fridge cabinet is likely .017" or thinner. It's very rigid and light weight.
The issue is the degree of engineering used to calculate precisely how the foam expands into the cavity and what the rate of expansion is. It's possible to over fill a cavity, and the expansion to bust at the seams.
While the chemicals and application may seem benign, the fact is that chemicals such as cyclopentane are extremely volatile.
My real world experience is that I sell over 90000 tons of steel a year to appliance manufacturers. That being said, I am in an appliance factory nearly every day and work with the engineers and manufacturing people who are using foam everyday. The design of the cavity, the flow and expansion rates are highly engineered and the chemicals can be dangerous. Adhesion rates are also carefully crafted and monitored.
There is likely wrong with using a bottled premixed product to insulate for heat, sound, vibration etc. My bet is the auto companies have put considerable time and resources into designing the application and end use to achieve desired results. Likely those techniques are not available to us as a viable and cost effective measure.
Just my opinion.

Spot on.

A lot of work goes into using structural foam to get the intended results. It's something that's designed in from the beginning. A retrofit on a 40+ year old car that wasn't designed for it would have a lot of hurdles to overcome to get the desired results. Not to mention no real way to test to make sure the desired result was even achieved.
 
I will be interested to see how this thread goes. I too have been concerned about the use of foam in these old Mopars. I never heard of it being done and when I saw it I thought it would retain moisture. I just bought a 68 Dart that had new quarters installed a decade ago and was then put in storage. Who ever did the body work, filled the space between the outer quarters and the trunk floor extensions with foam. Everyone tells me I've got to get all that foam out of there or it will rust away as soon as its exposed to moisture. I fear that it may be the only thing holding the bottom of the quarters in place and if I eliminate the foam, then the whole car will need to be redone right away (which is not in the budget).
 
That expanding foam out of the can with the big straw on it...I shot it behind some tub tiles after I replaced the tub spout and the stuff popped the tiles right off. I sliced it flat and put the tiles right back on it, good as new. I used the stuff again for another project and I left a vent hole that produced a 6" long 'worm' after it cured. We use that stuff now to fill ducts after we run a cable so it wont leak. We got this crazy 2 part syringe type applicator that blows up on you if you dont follow the directions to the 'T'. throws that **** everywhere in a 10 foot radius and its hard to get off your skin and hair...baby oil!
 
I am sure there are different foam compounds out there , but I have used a well known brand in aerosol cans in tight areas with little air exposure. At times it just turned into a goo and never set into foam. Other uses exposed to continual water it would absorb a lot of water over time. Just my experience, but because of that I would be very cautious to use that product or any similar unless proven that will not happen.
Yote
 
here is a good read on the foam in the new challengers causing rust by holding moisture.....although it is around the wheel area....If you keep it inside the interior I would think it would be alright
Rust Out Issues
 
My personal opinion. No way. All the sections of the cars have holes or dimples to allow for moisture to drain / evaporate / dry out. To fill the voids with anything would obstruct and defeat the purpose. I believe this is nothing but a recipe for rust.
 
lol,,,did anyone even look at the SAE papers I posted links to? They address a lot of the speculation & guessing posts.

  1. None of the vehicles tested by Chrysler, GM or Mazda were initially "designed" with structural foam but all showed surprising and positive results.
  2. Foam density is critical. 8-24lb/ft3 densities were tested. DOE showed that 8lb/ft3 foam to be the most efficient in terms of weight vs % improvement Hardware store "Great stuff" isn't even close at ~0.5lb/ft3. 3M 8458, Rigid Pillar foam is around 20-30lb/ft3 irrc. BWM's foam(TEROCORE® 1015AA)is ~30lb/ft3
  3. Proper surface adhesion is a valid concern. The Mazda paper actually tested it but it appears that what they used and how they tested it may have elevated the importance of foams adhesive strength. The BMW foam and 3M's 8458 is intended for well used vehicles but obviously not rusty 40 year old A-bodies.
  4. As shown in all 3 papers, the focus wasn't on fully filled larger cavities but the JOINTS where one reinforcement met another that proved most important. So I'm thinking it's not worthwhile to fill the entire cavity between the inner and outer rocker panel but the JOINTS where that structure ties into the Cowl, A,B,C-pillars, ect. With that in mind, with the proper fill and density, smaller volume of foam will mechanically locks into the "joints" as it expands into the nooks and crannies, thus reducing the dependence on surface adhesion strength.
  5. Testing isn't terribly complicated especially since its a comparative, % improvement result. XV & US Car Tool showed similar test fixtures.
    upload_2017-6-23_9-39-47.png
 
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I was looking at these joints in the rockers where it "connects to the A & B pillar. (note the lack of any internal structure)
Fill the rocker cavity in those areas and partially into the pillars themselves


upload_2017-6-23_10-12-39.png
 
In all the 3 SAE papers, the joint where the A pillar meets the cowl and roof panel was very important.

I was looking at this cavity(high up to avoid any moisture). Door hinge mounting is a bit in the way on both ends of the A pillar, unfortunately


upload_2017-6-23_10-23-56.png

upload_2017-6-23_10-25-47.png
 
Don't you defeat the purpose of "crumple" zones if you make certain parts of the body more rigid??

treblig
 
Lots of the 3rd, and forth gen Dodge trucks rot out around the wheel wells on the box. They have foam in them.
barracudadave67
 
Don't you defeat the purpose of "crumple" zones if you make certain parts of the body more rigid??

treblig

Obviously no such thing in an ABody.

Most of a modern car's crumple zone is from the A pillar forward. Maintaining the integrity of the passenger compartment space frame is what's most important in a crash to protect the occupants. I think all the SAE papers reference that.
 
First, I want to make clear this is about structural foam. I think several of the replies reference expanding insulation foam, like the kind you get from the hardware store. That's like comparing the tin foil in your kitchen to structural steel. Sure, they're both metal, but the similarities pretty much stop there. And you couldn't have a relevant discussion about making, say, subframe connectors out of tin foil vs structural steel. Same with insulating foam and structural foam. They're both foam, but that's about the only thing they have in common and there's no relevant comparison for chassis stiffening.

Second, I absolutely read the articles. I actually went back and re-read them. Just because I mostly disagree with your conclusions about their relevance for use in A-bodies, ie, guys adding structural foam to their 40 + year old cars in their garages, doesn't mean I didn't read the articles. There are several VERY important processes involved in the articles that aren't being replicated by just injecting foam into an A-body in someone's garage, and a few relevant points that are not addressed at all.

All of the articles used finite element models for structural analysis. Not only did they use FEA models, they picked the application points for the foam based on the results of those FEA models. That's not the same as just picking the joints and corners of a chassis and adding structural foam. Those joints were chosen based on the results of FEA analysis, making the use of those joints specific to the chassis that was analyzed. Considerations were made based on the shape and size of the cavities as well. I don't see any FEA analysis going on of the A-body chassis to determine where the structural foam should be added. Not only that, but the fact that FEA models existed for the chassis' in these articles means that the engineers would have had the relevant information on cavity volumes to determine the amount of foam needed in each joint/cavity. Not to mention the location of all the relevant baffles and internal stiffening plates etc that would confine the foam. The GM article even points out that the modal testing didn't match the FEA testing because of the injection sites used and internal baffling changing the way that the foam filled the cavities compared to what was modeled. The Chrysler article very clearly states that their models assumed that "the material expands to form a block of foam perfectly bonded to the sheet metal." I don't think you can assume that with a chassis that's been out in the world for well over 40 years. The chassis' tested in the GM article were current production year models that were pulled off the assembly line. Brand new cars. The chassis used in the Chrysler article isn't specified beyond it being an SUV and the graphics appearing to be of a Jeep Cherokee or similar, but given that they already had the FEA models I would guess that it was either a brand new, or at least very new, chassis.

I also don't see how you're going to constrain the foam to the joints in any of the areas you've circled. How will you guarantee the foam won't run along the entire length of the inside of the rocker, and expand to only partially fill it? You'd have to add baffles or internal structures. Not to mention that the door supports and bases of the a-pillar structure where they attach to the rockers are not open to the rockers, there's no corner shaped void to fill. You'd have to fill the rocker section and upright sections separately. Same with the A-pillars. They're hollow. You wouldn't be able to add foam to just the top corner, you'd have to fill the entire pillar unless you baffled it. And again, same for the cowl section you circled at the base of the A-pillar. That whole cowl is an open space, you'd have to baffle it if you wanted to keep the foam near the base of the A-pillar. Otherwise it would just run to the bottom of the cowl. Doing that would involve removing the upper cowl completely, which is not something a lot of us need, or want, to undertake.

Your point about the foam "locking" into the joints isn't valid. Look at the Mazda paper again. Very little bending strength was added in the partially filled cavities. If the foam wasn't bonded fully to the metal, you only got the bending strength of the foam and metal separately, and the foam has almost no bending strength by itself. That's why they made such a big deal out of the adhesion strength of the foam.

As far as the US Cartool and XV testing, comparing that to FEA and modal testing by major automotive and engineering companies is a pretty big stretch. Don't get me wrong, they make good products and some of the testing methodologies used are relevant. But you can't forget that both companies sell a product, and there are videos of the testing for visual impact. Which may certainly have changed the methodology and procedures used. It's like basing a chemical engineering discussion on the properties of OxyClean using one of their commercials. Does that mean the tests shown in the commercials aren't valid? Not necessarily. But the point of the commercial was not to conduct a 100% valid scientific test, it was to have a visual impact to sell product. Same with the videos comparing chassis stiffness. Not enough of the methodology or process is discussed to use the video as the basis for structural engineering analysis.

I'm not saying that the structural foam is useless, or can't be used for this application. But you only have a couple papers on structural foam used in modern cars that are heavily entwined with FEA. That's not what you're doing. There's no information on how any of it is going to work on a 40+ year old car with rust, corrosion and dirt with the foam applied by a novice in a garage based on picking important looking joints and guessing at the volume of foam needed. And there's no articles included about doing a comparison between the structural foam and say, adding some gusset plates. That's mentioned in the GM article, but it's mentioned along with how big a deal it is to retool an assembly line to do stuff like that. Adding structural foam is a better deal for an assembly line making tens of thousands of cars. Adding it to an A-body is a one off. They can do the research, FEA, and testing to back up the FEA, that's what they do. And they're going to already have all the product and tools to add the foam. That's easier for them. In a home garage adding a few heavy gauge sheet metal gussets is a heck of a lot easier, and you don't have to be an expert on structural foam application to do it. You just need a MIG welder and some metal, and most of us are already set up to do that. Sure, if we were mass producing that would be more costly and time consuming, but not for a one off. And I seriously doubt any of us are going to do enough testing with the proper methodology to produce a valid engineering analysis to prove what works better in the end.

I mean, knock yourself out. Seriously, I'd love to see how you go about doing it- prepping the chassis, constraining the joints to add the foam, the end product and even the anecdotal "seat of the pants" results that you get. But I don't think you're going to prove that adding the structural foam is better than say, adding subframe connectors and torque boxes. And adding those is a lot easier for most folks at home in their garage than what's going to be necessary to ensure a quality result with the foam. But that's just my opinion.
 
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wow,,,,,I'll try to be less verbose.

I've spent weeks being trained in using FEA and CFD software and use it regularly. I'm well aware of the caveats. All tests started with FEA but I believe at least 2 of them validated their model with bodies in white.

The mazda beam was tested such that increased "adhesion strength" in the shear plane improved performance. This was because they were mostly focusing on improving crash performance. While I agree that it's a significant factor, I'm not so sure a benefit can't be had without the perfect bonding surface.


Have a little more open mind,,,,containing the foam to a finite area is as simple as a child's balloon:

Measuring torsional rigidity is not over complicated. A simple Before/After comparison is more than most vendors provide. Was USCT simplistic "look at the tape sag" equally scrutinized?
 
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wow,,,,,I'll try to be less verbose.

I've spent weeks being trained in using FEA and CFD software and use it regularly. I'm well aware of the caveats. All tests started with FEA but I believe at least 2 of them validated their model with bodies in white.

The mazda beam was tested such that increased "adhesion strength" in the shear plane improved performance. This was because they were mostly focusing on improving crash performance. While I agree that it's a significant factor, I'm not so sure a benefit can't be had without the perfect bonding surface.


Have a little more open mind,,,,containing the foam to a finite area is as simple as a child's balloon:

Measuring torsional rigidity is not over complicated. A simple Before/After comparison is more than most vendors provide. Was USCT simplistic "look at the tape sag" equally scrutinized?


Hey, if you want to have a bullet point presentation that overly simplifies the issue and doesn't address all the possible complications then become a politician. If you want to have a real engineering discussion you'll have to do some reading. At least that's how it worked when I got my bachelor's in Aerospace engineering from UCLA. Maybe it's all youtube videos and bullet points now, I dunno.

Yeah, the GM and Chrysler tests both verified with bodies in white. But they were pulling brand new chassis' off the assembly line. The Mazda tests shows that if you have less than spectacular adhesion, you will get less than spectacular improvements. That is a VERY real consideration given your application and method. Successful engineering is all about making sure your methods match your application and you're not assuming things in the math that aren't happening in real life.

Want it short and sweet? It would be faster, easier, and much more likely to be successful if you just spent an hour with a MIG welder and stitch or seam welded the corners of the chassis you intend to fill with foam. That will absolutely stiffen the chassis, would require no extra tools or skills that most of us don't have already, and could just as easily be verified.

And no, I don't give the USCT tests any more credit. I scrutinize the heck out of any test that's carried out by the same folks that are selling the product they're testing.

Like I said, knock yourself out. For my time and money I'd do some stitch welding. The factories don't do that because of cost, the foam is a cheaper way for them to operate compared to welding.
 
I'll add a little steel and extra welds.
Pass on the foam dealie.
I dont see it being effective on anything but a pristine new vehicle.
 
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