Ignition Points Tech Question

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mitch340Duster

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This is on my late Dad's 1922 Reo Speedwagon (Mitch Amatrudo - 1922 Reo Speedwagon)
No spark. Tried all basic ignition troubleshooting. 6v power to coil when ignition switch is on. Known good coil that started another vehicle fine. Known good coil wire. Power going to points., etc. Here's the tricky question...
The points are visibly burned, but I just learned that when meter is applied between + and - of coil, when rotating the engine I should see power on and off as the points open and close, and I do. My question I guess is, if the points are passing the above test even though they are burned and everything else is good, should I get spark? If the points are burned to the point where there would be no spark, would they still pass the "on/off when rotating" test ?
I cannot find points for the truck anywhere otherwise of-course I would try another set. Thinking of doing a pertronix conversion but I would have to send the dist to them for a custom job, but I'd like to listen here first. I also removed the condenser from the distributor and there was no change. Thanks in-advance !
 
You have spark and know it is a working motor, I would be looking at the fuel system. Have you tried to pour a little raw gas into the carb to see if it fires?

I would also take a very small file and run it thru the points to take down any burrs
 
the points act as a low amp/ow volt on-off switch: applying the test voltage through them from the 6V battery and manually cycling them at low speed may not show a fault but when they are cycling quickly with the kick back voltage of the ignition (condensor protection) you may get an arc that does not show the coil a ground. especially with old points. your option would be to file them with a fine points file and possible drill out the center of the contact to reduce the chance of growing another 'tit' on the point surface. also look for stray ground paths from the distributor to the coil - lead.
 
You can also put a small piece of paper or something between the points contacts to make sure they can't make contact and ground the points arm to the plate under them with a screwdriver.
That arm should also be 6v+ when not making contact.
With the ignition on you should get a spark from the coil wire when you remove the screwdriver.
This is just a quick and dirty test to see if everything else in the ignition is capable of producing a spark, and temporarily eliminates the possible bad points from the circuit.
 
For "starters" (pun intended LOL) you MUST HAVE a good condenser. If you cannot find an original type, jerry rig one out of "most anything" with points. Ford, Chev, or Mopar. You can mount it externally and hook it to the coil points lead

Not terribly important but pay attention to coil polarity. There is a mix of ground polarity on 6V systems. Either way you should get a spark.

Turn key to "run" make certain points are closed. Measure voltage on both coil terminals. You should have near "same as battery" voltage (6V nominal........check at battery too!!) on the power terminal, and the "lesser the better" on the points terminal. Hard to say what you can get away with at this point, but if you have more than a volt you better look for a way to improve the points.

Who made the distributor? In the "better days" of parts stores, we had all kinds of tag numbers listings (numerical listings) which would cross dist. tag no. to the parts needed "The kids" at these fake stores nowadays HAVE NO CLUE

It has been SO LONG now that I've finally forgotten the "thumb rule" of maximum breaker points voltage drop. Maybe 1/2 volt?
 
"Other stuff"

Use your head here and THINK

The points are simply a switch to ground. If you stop the engine with points open, or BLOCK them open, the coil voltage on both terminals should be "same as battery"

With points closed, the coil power terminal should be "same as battery" but the points terminal should be VERY low.

So consider the circuit path from the coil points terminal.
1....The terminal end there at the coil to the wire. THAT can be bad in some cases, molded plastic/ rubber etc

2....The distributor primary wire can be broken open internally, and intermittent.

3.....The distributor primary wire can/ has and might SHORT at the grommet going through the distributor case

4.....If the path into the distributor is a feed through terminal and not a grommet, the insulating washers can be allowing a short, OR MOISTURE AND CORROSION in that assembly could be fouling things up

5.....The terminal/ insulator right at the points might be suspect.....shorting to ground or intermittent

6....MOST COMMON would be the points themselves are dirty/ greasy/ corroded and not making contact or INTERMITTENT

7....The breaker plate MUST be grounded. If the coil points terminal shows a lot of voltage / points closed, don't assume it's the points contacts......CHECK the breaker plate!!! Put your meter lead on the points ground mounting, and the other probe on the distributor CASE. If you show ANY voltage, investigate. The breaker plate MAY HAVE (or missing) a ground braid

Photo below for illustration.......

SVDAinside.jpg
 
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You have spark and know it is a working motor, I would be looking at the fuel system. Have you tried to pour a little raw gas into the carb to see if it fires?

I would also take a very small file and run it thru the points to take down any burrs
NO spark, tried cleaning the points. Thanks for the reply
 
the points act as a low amp/ow volt on-off switch: applying the test voltage through them from the 6V battery and manually cycling them at low speed may not show a fault but when they are cycling quickly with the kick back voltage of the ignition (condensor protection) you may get an arc that does not show the coil a ground. especially with old points. your option would be to file them with a fine points file and possible drill out the center of the contact to reduce the chance of growing another 'tit' on the point surface. also look for stray ground paths from the distributor to the coil - lead.

Thank you your first sentence says maybe it is the points. Cleaned the points with sandpaper, no change. Per your suggestion I tried a new wire from the dist to the coil, no change. Thank you.
 
For "starters" (pun intended LOL) you MUST HAVE a good condenser. If you cannot find an original type, jerry rig one out of "most anything" with points. Ford, Chev, or Mopar. You can mount it externally and hook it to the coil points lead

Not terribly important but pay attention to coil polarity. There is a mix of ground polarity on 6V systems. Either way you should get a spark.

Turn key to "run" make certain points are closed. Measure voltage on both coil terminals. You should have near "same as battery" voltage (6V nominal........check at battery too!!) on the power terminal, and the "lesser the better" on the points terminal. Hard to say what you can get away with at this point, but if you have more than a volt you better look for a way to improve the points.

Who made the distributor? In the "better days" of parts stores, we had all kinds of tag numbers listings (numerical listings) which would cross dist. tag no. to the parts needed "The kids" at these fake stores nowadays HAVE NO CLUE

It has been SO LONG now that I've finally forgotten the "thumb rule" of maximum breaker points voltage drop. Maybe 1/2 volt?


Research said it should work without a condenser but the points would burn out quickly. Since I still have no spark with the condenser removed I'll put it back in. Interestingly I looked at old pictures of the truck and it appears the coil was wired the other way, with the ignition switch wire going to the negative coil terminal. I tried it both ways more than once though, no change.
Key in "run", points closed, battery voltage on power terminal, less than half a volt on the points terminal.
Dist is "North East" and has it's numbers still. I have a good parts guy but I don't think he'll get anywhere with it. I spent a LONG time doing research. Incidentally I thought Napa might have 6v coil so I went there with the coil and the woman at the counter said "need a new fuel pump?".
Thank you for your time
 
"Other stuff"

Use your head here and THINK

The points are simply a switch to ground. If you stop the engine with points open, or BLOCK them open, the coil voltage on both terminals should be "same as battery"

With points closed, the coil power terminal should be "same as battery" but the points terminal should be VERY low.

So consider the circuit path from the coil points terminal.
1....The terminal end there at the coil to the wire. THAT can be bad in some cases, molded plastic/ rubber etc

2....The distributor primary wire can be broken open internally, and intermittent.

3.....The distributor primary wire can/ has and might SHORT at the grommet going through the distributor case

4.....If the path into the distributor is a feed through terminal and not a grommet, the insulating washers can be allowing a short, OR MOISTURE AND CORROSION in that assembly could be fouling things up

5.....The terminal/ insulator right at the points might be suspect.....shorting to ground or intermittent

6....MOST COMMON would be the points themselves are dirty/ greasy/ corroded and not making contact or INTERMITTENT

7....The breaker plate MUST be grounded. If the coil points terminal shows a lot of voltage / points closed, don't assume it's the points contacts......CHECK the breaker plate!!! Put your meter lead on the points ground mounting, and the other probe on the distributor CASE. If you show ANY voltage, investigate. The breaker plate MAY HAVE (or missing) a ground braid

Photo below for illustration.......

View attachment 1715089023

Basically tried all of this. With points closed I have .400-ish volts at the points terminal.
I also bench-tested the dist carefully with multimeter and confirmed no illegal shorts to ground. BTW I did this because when removing dist for inspection I left the ignition on and saw the dist body sparking against the housing it goes into. "Ah-Ha" I thought...there's a short somewhere in the dist, that's why I bench tested all of it, then more research told me that is normal, since the wire is grounding-out when the points close. Still learning stuff after many years. Thank you !
 
So, you know you can disconnect the wire from the coil to the distributor and scrape that wire on the block or intake totally bypassing the distributor/points and you should have a spark from the coil.

If not, the problem isn't in the distributor at all.
This isn't a positive ground system is it?
(Does the battery positive cable connect to the block or body?)

The comment about the ignition negative wire going to the coil made me wonder.

BTW, not using a condenser may or may not let it run but if it does at all it'll run like crap (BADLY like crap)
You would however get a random spark from the coil without a condenser.
 
Thanks to all for your time with this. If you have 8 or 10 hours with nothing to do, look at my posts of stuff with my Duster. I'm the guy who seems to always run-into severe head-scratchers that sometimes just can't be explained. The distributor oil leak is a perfect example. Nobody believed me but it was proven 100% to be the problem.
This thing with the Reo is basic mechanics. As always I tried lots of stuff and did lots of research before posting. Tried all your suggestions. I'm gonna assume that the problem is the points, since I've ruled-out anything else.
ONE MORE THING I discovered when trying all your tips....If I hold the coil wire in my hand when cranking I get an eye-opener of a zap, but still no visible spark or arc coming from the end of the coil wire to a good ground, also checked at the spark plug and nothing.
I might go to my good local parts guy and see if I can find a set of points to modify enough for further troubleshooting, and/or call Pertronix and see if they can make me an electronic setup. THANKS AGAIN !!
 
Thanks to all for your time with this. If you have 8 or 10 hours with nothing to do, look at my posts of stuff with my Duster. I'm the guy who seems to always run-into severe head-scratchers that sometimes just can't be explained. The distributor oil leak is a perfect example. Nobody believed me but it was proven 100% to be the problem.
This thing with the Reo is basic mechanics. As always I tried lots of stuff and did lots of research before posting. Tried all your suggestions. I'm gonna assume that the problem is the points, since I've ruled-out anything else.
ONE MORE THING I discovered when trying all your tips....If I hold the coil wire in my hand when cranking I get an eye-opener of a zap, but still no visible spark or arc coming from the end of the coil wire to a good ground, also checked at the spark plug and nothing.
I might go to my good local parts guy and see if I can find a set of points to modify enough for further troubleshooting, and/or call Pertronix and see if they can make me an electronic setup. THANKS AGAIN !!

Ok, never mind then.
Thanks for letting me waste my time giving some very simple diagnostics that would point you directly to the problem and apparently not only not trying it, but not even answering.
30 seconds to disconnect the points to coil wire and ground it with the ignition on to yay or nay the distributor as the problem, but noooo.
Whatever.
 
Try points from an 8N Ford Tractor, I'll bet they're the same!!
 
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Easy,its points. Set distributor so a flat is aligned with rubbing block. Leave a little gap between rubbing block and flat on distributor. After cleaning points with very fine paper followed with a clean piece of paper,printer paper works. Need to be clean.
Battery hot to coil,other side of coil to points, points to engine ground. Check breaker plate for a ground strap,or the possibility that its missing. If, all this is correct there is no reason it wont fire. Unless rotor is burned through. I resurrected a 27 studebaker that hadnt run in 35 years,making it spark was the easy part.
 
Ok, never mind then.
Thanks for letting me waste my time giving some very simple diagnostics that would point you directly to the problem and apparently not only not trying it, but not even answering.
30 seconds to disconnect the points to coil wire and ground it with the ignition on to yay or nay the distributor as the problem, but noooo.
Whatever.

When replying earlier I missed your post, I am very
Ok, never mind then.
Thanks for letting me waste my time giving some very simple diagnostics that would point you directly to the problem and apparently not only not trying it, but not even answering.
30 seconds to disconnect the points to coil wire and ground it with the ignition on to yay or nay the distributor as the problem, but noooo.
Whatever.

Hey when replying to the others earlier I skipped your post, then I had to go somewhere and I'm just getting back on. I'm sorry. I don't take it lightly that guys devote their time to helping others. I DID try what you said at 11:57 and found it interesting, and I DID get a spark from the coil wire when removing the screwdriver. I'm out for a couple days now but I will try your other idea ASAP.
The truck is negative ground. Not sure why the coil was wired like it was but there was some hokey splices in the area that dad must have done some time ago. I followed the diagram for the new replacement wiring harness which has the ignition wire going to positive, as it seems it should. Again I tried it both ways more than once. Thanks again. I'm going to PM you a copy of this to be sure you see it so you're not pissed at me all night.
 
When replying earlier I missed your post, I am very


Hey when replying to the others earlier I skipped your post, then I had to go somewhere and I'm just getting back on. I'm sorry. I don't take it lightly that guys devote their time to helping others. I DID try what you said at 11:57 and found it interesting, and I DID get a spark from the coil wire when removing the screwdriver. I'm out for a couple days now but I will try your other idea ASAP.
The truck is negative ground. Not sure why the coil was wired like it was but there was some hokey splices in the area that dad must have done some time ago. I followed the diagram for the new replacement wiring harness which has the ignition wire going to positive, as it seems it should. Again I tried it both ways more than once. Thanks again. I'm going to PM you a copy of this to be sure you see it so you're not pissed at me all night.

I was only pissed for a couple of minutes because I was/am busy, hot and was trying to help someone with straight to the point diagnosing.
Sorry I went off on you a bit over it, as that's not normally me.
BTW, the distributor/points is apparently the problem as shown by your test with the wire.:D
 
you get a jolt but no spark at the end of the wire...perhaps your coil is so weak that it wont make the jump? Have you ohmed out the good coil wire? as stated a dragging negative coil wire to ground will tickle the coil to produce a high voltage spark that should be good enough to jump at least what the plugs are gapped to.
 
you get a jolt but no spark at the end of the wire...perhaps your coil is so weak that it wont make the jump? Have you ohmed out the good coil wire? as stated a dragging negative coil wire to ground will tickle the coil to produce a high voltage spark that should be good enough to jump at least what the plugs are gapped to.

He said the coil fired using the screwdriver to ground the hot arm of the points to the distributor body, so I am inclined to think the problem is actually the points themselves.
Could still be a coil also, and if he can get one without them trying to sell him a fuel pump we'll be good. :D
 
....If I hold the coil wire in my hand when cranking I get an eye-opener of a zap, but still no visible spark or arc coming from the end of the coil wire to a good ground, also checked at the spark plug and nothing.

so this was before the screwdriver trick? Ok....after the screwdriver trick he gets a spark at the ground source...? Well have to see how this pans out.
 
Like I said earlier........try a different condenser as well. You MUST have a good condenser to form the spark.
 
so this was before the screwdriver trick? Ok....after the screwdriver trick he gets a spark at the ground source...? Well have to see how this pans out.

I understood that he said he got a spark from the coil when he grounded the points positive contact to the distributor case.
(technically he got spark when he ungrounded out the points arm:D)
 
Try points from an 8N Ford Tractor, I'll bet they're the same!!

Thanks but nope, I found some others on ebay that I might be able to make work. Actually when hunting-down parts for the Reo I often ended-up with tractor stuff though
 
OK it looks like it's the points. Lessons learned....
1. Evidently to answer my original question, if the points are worn enough to keep the motor from starting, they might (did in my case) still pass the test of showing on/off voltage at the coil when turning the motor over slowly.
2. Clean the points as directed in this thread. Previously I ran 400-ish sandpaper through them and there was no difference. Today I ran some 1,000 through them, then clean paper, and it was after doing this that the motor fired. The spark is really wimpy and will only arc a very short distance, but I suppose it stands to reason, since clearly the points are nearly shot. Also the test that Trail Beast suggested at 11:57 produced a much better (but still weak) blue spark compared to the tiny yellow spark I had before cleaning the points.
3. The engine still starts and runs without the condenser. I can't speak to how good or bad it runs because I shut it down right-away since I read in another forum that running without the condenser will fry the points quickly.
4. More of an editorial, but this is an example of how sometimes going to the internet for answers can make things more complicated. This is basic mechanics, and everything pointed to the points being the problem, BUT since I can't get points for this vehicle readily (or probably at-all), I wanted to do some more troubleshooting before spending much more time hunting them down. If this were a pre-internet world I would have thought "what else could it be?" and did whatever I had to do to find a set, and I would have been correct. HAVING SAID THAT, I learned a LOT from everyone's ideas including not only troubleshooting tips, but how this stuff all works.

"Going forward" (another over-used phrase on cable news, but not as bad as "at the end of the day") I'm waiting to hear back from an inquiry to Pertronix about if they can set me up with an electronic ignition kit. Also there's 3 or 4 point sets on Ebay that I think I might be able to modify to fit, and I'll be installing a modern condenser if I stay with points.

Again, thanks for everyone's time and help. I will update about what I end-up with whenever that is.
 
Shoot me a pic of the points and condenser I have a lot of old Sorensen stuff I cannot identify I might just have them. I redo distributors and buy lots of ignitions stuff when I see stuff I need for the older 50's mopars. Seriously I have a ton of stuff!
 
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