Bighead440
Well-Known Member
I wish Jerry would do them. He probably would for me/you but I hate to ask him to break his edict. Our Buick 455 dragster heads were the last ones he did besides some Pontiac doorstops. LOL
Porting DC Stage IV iron heads
- Thread starter Bighead440
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I wish Jerry would do them. He probably would for me/you but I hate to ask him to break his edict. Our Buick 455 dragster heads were the last ones he did besides some Pontiac doorstops. LOL
Dad was a victim of the hype like so many of us are........"Oooooh, a new iron race head for the Chrysler!......We're all saved now!" I think he never spent the time on the 452 that he could have.
Long time ago Cody and I found a set of Stage IV in a garage where a man was getting rid of some Mopar stuff his son had collected, Cody remarked on their similarity to the 452 and set them back down on the shelf. I never bought any Stage IV heads for Cody like I did with the Stage V. I don't think any IV's were available when I bought the V's. What he may have been able to do with those IV's I guess we'll never know. He freakin' hates workin' on iron now.
When we started, we had a bunch of old heads that Dad had experimented on. As we developed our heads, we began to notice a big drift away from the direction the Dad had been going in port design. Cody began to exceed the air flows Pop was getting on the higher lifts and I started experimenting on seat angles and throat design that were getting better flow than Pop's, and we combined the two. The toughest obstacle we had to overcome was getting the mid-range up between the other two.
Jesus Chrysler
Forgiving Sins Against Mopar Since 1983
What was the going shat inducing rate for a set of Laroy custom ported heads?
Ok, so then yall haven't actually done any work on the Stage IVs. Lord knows, I don't know anything about head flow, but "it just looks like" from how the heads are designed that the pushrod pinch can be completely removed without breaking through the head. That appears to be "some kinda" advantage........but who da heck knows?
If it was me I'd call Porter Racing Heads and see what he says. If you got the heads for free then it might work out okay for you. Otherwise you could just sell them and buy a set of Trick Flow 240 heads.
It's not relevant any more because the service in no longer offered. But because you asked, an example or two. Edelbrock RPM or standard Stealth heads to 340 cfm were $1,750. Factory iron 906 heads to 340 cfm were $5,100.
Our heads were designed for a very limited class of competition. There were always heads that were "better" but my son and I were trying to go where others thought it was impossible.
"Dad, let's beat the aftermarket aluminum heads with factory iron!"
Had it said behind our backs, "Nobody can make the kind of power he claims he can with Edelbrock RPM heads!" Well we did it, and more, on Comp Cams dyno.
You see, we were out of touch with reality. I was stupid and didn't realize we had the knowledge and the skill, but never had the money or facilities to compete with the rest of the world. Now, some months I pay the electric bill in the shop with my Social Security.
But, hey, I'm still overweight, so it can't be too bad, eh?
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
That's still pretty cheap for cast iron. I don't do many heads any more. When I do, it ain't cast iron, for any money.
I have my own W-2's to port and that will be the LAST cast iron heads I do.
Dartnut
Don't hate me because i'm beautiful
What a great, honest post.
I wish all the best for you and your son and thank you for all you have done with your information sharing so we can all learn from you and your son's (and father's) builds and exploits over the years..........
Too bad it came to this.
I believe it was in an article about the "NEW" B1 heads that Dave Koffel stated that the Stage IV heads were a joke, and just required a lot of extra grinding to use for very
little gain if any.
Bighead440
Well-Known Member
I remember when Chrysler sold their inventory of "452" heads for $30 and later $15 apiece and all the people with those NOS heads said "906" and "346" heads were absolute junk and you had to have (their?) "452" heads to make any power, at a premium price. They even promoted "hardened seats" (induction hardened castings at the factory, NOT pressed in inserts) and installing oversized 1.81" valves in the same breath. Many salesmen out there!
Chrysler/MoPar Perf/Direct Connection really missed the boat by insisting on using stock length valves in their aftermarket heads, iron and the aluminum Stage VI. Also they cast them with huge/restrictive guide bosses (Stage VI and iron R/T Magnum heads, in particular) and weird ports (aluminum Magnum/Commando intake and exhaust), but when ported/cleaned-up, the other superior features gave them an advantage.
Except for some of the Stage VI heads, My P5249579 Max Wedge . The intake push rods were relocated, This is why you have to use .465 offset intake rockers.
Bighead440
Well-Known Member
The later Stage VI's had the tremendous guide bosses reduced a little. The Stage VI offset rockers will actually work on Stage IV heads, although Stage IV's really only need .450-.500" offset. (Stock offset is .250") Part of that extra offset is the larger Max Wedge port window.
My Stage VI Max Wedge heads flowed 345cfm@.650" and my regular Stage VI's flowed 325@.650" (both with the 2.14" intake valve) on a bench that rarely indicates much over 300cfm with Eddy or Stealth heads, so I know they work well. Great exhaust flow as well, so raised ports do help!! Chapman Heads modified raw castings and got Indy-killing flow with Stage VI heads, using longer valves and a recontoured intake port.
famous bob
mopar misfit
factory iron mopar head to 340 cfm? DAM THATS HARD TO BELIEVE !
Bighead440
Well-Known Member
I understand. It is hard to believe.
326 cfm @ .600" lift, 342 cfm @ .700" and 346 cfm @ .770".
If you scroll down to 'LaRoy Engines' in this article, you will see what the 906 heads did on a severely wounded 500" engine on Comp Cams dyno. 15 bent valves and cylinders with as much as 56% leakdown.
The 2011 AMSOIL/Mopar Muscle Engine Challenge, Part 2 - Mopar Muscle Magazine
Yep, and that is the result of methodical intuition, repeated trial & error, and almost endless hours of hard work & skills.
I once asked Cody how many hours he thought we had in those 906 heads. That 1st set he estimated at 300 hours. It didn't take anything like that for the next set that went 336 cfm with smaller valves.
famous bob
mopar misfit
I believe it. u wouldn`t believe how many hrs I have in a team G. Been playing w/ it all winter off and on, ready to be flow tested now.
Jesus Chrysler
Forgiving Sins Against Mopar Since 1983
Thanks for sharing. Is the difference in price driven mostly by how much harder cast iron is to work? Seems like the aluminum heads would be a no brainer at that price point.
It is different because cast iron is harder to work, is a much worse place to start from and has greater core inconsistencies.
Now days, why would anyone buy RPM heads for (currently) $1,461.00 and then have them worked on to the tune of $1,750 for a total of $3,211, plus shipping, valve springs, retainers and locks set up for your cam? You can buy a pair of Trick Flow 240 for $1999.00-$2,199.00 fully assembled with the proper springs, retainers and locks.
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famous bob
mopar misfit
If I were starting over, trickflow would get my money. They weren`t out when I bought my raised ports.
PRH
Well-Known Member
It’s just more money than the market would bare.
For classes where the rules insist on factory heads, but any level of porting and valve sizes are allowed....... that’s a pretty tiny market in the first place.
Then out of that market..... you’re targeting the Mopar guys....... and then only the ones willing to spend $5100 on heads.
I imagine that’s a pretty small group of people.
Any idea how many sets of those really high effort stock heads you guys ended up doing/selling?
Had Cody concentrated on NHRA legal SS heads, and found a way to come up with something better than what was currently available to those racers, you probably would have had more people willing to pay the big $$$ for them.
Dear Mr. Porter,
Zero.
There were no takers at $3,500. So to reinforce the the fact that we no longer had any desire to port iron heads, the price went up should anyone inquire about some.
When I had more money I offered to hand carry the heads to anyone and install them on their engine so they could see the difference. Again, no takers. Well hell, we all know it's impossible, why waste the time.
And now no desire to repeat the offer. Building engines was only really fun when we were doing them for ourselves.
Zero.
There were no takers at $3,500. So to reinforce the the fact that we no longer had any desire to port iron heads, the price went up should anyone inquire about some.
When I had more money I offered to hand carry the heads to anyone and install them on their engine so they could see the difference. Again, no takers. Well hell, we all know it's impossible, why waste the time.
And now no desire to repeat the offer. Building engines was only really fun when we were doing them for ourselves.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
So let me see if I can sum this up. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
You were DOING the impossible WITH the impossible FOR the unwilling.
Am I close with that succinct statement?
PRH
Well-Known Member
Most of the ones I did were less than $3000.
Did they flow over 300cfm?
Nope.
But at the time I was doing those things fairly regularly, I didn’t have the kind of time in my schedule to spend on any one set of heads to get that kind of number out of them.
Nor did I want to........ and I don’t like porting for free........ so, how much time I could spend on porting was dictated by what the final price of the heads would be.
A pretty nice set of 346/902/452 heads could be done and out the door for under 3g’s ready to install...... which was about the limit most users were willing to pay.
I did a few sets of 906’s that were a little more $$$ than that...... they just take longer to port...... but they did flow a little more, along with slightly better area under the curve.
But to your point about it being “fun”.
As you discovered....... like most things in life where you’re doing it to get paid...... even when you enjoy what you’re doing .......its still work.
How many sets like that would you really have wanted to do for $3500??
I had hoped that someday a set of your high effort ported iron heads would end up at my shop for one reason or another.
But I guess if the number of units in circulation is “zero”, the chances of that happening are mighty slim.
Did they flow over 300cfm?
Nope.
But at the time I was doing those things fairly regularly, I didn’t have the kind of time in my schedule to spend on any one set of heads to get that kind of number out of them.
Nor did I want to........ and I don’t like porting for free........ so, how much time I could spend on porting was dictated by what the final price of the heads would be.
A pretty nice set of 346/902/452 heads could be done and out the door for under 3g’s ready to install...... which was about the limit most users were willing to pay.
I did a few sets of 906’s that were a little more $$$ than that...... they just take longer to port...... but they did flow a little more, along with slightly better area under the curve.
But to your point about it being “fun”.
As you discovered....... like most things in life where you’re doing it to get paid...... even when you enjoy what you’re doing .......its still work.
How many sets like that would you really have wanted to do for $3500??
I had hoped that someday a set of your high effort ported iron heads would end up at my shop for one reason or another.
But I guess if the number of units in circulation is “zero”, the chances of that happening are mighty slim.
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