Lifter stuck?

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ktcnn94

ktcnn94

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I’m sorry but this is lengthy. I want to try and give all the info. This may be simple to some of you guys but I just can’t figure what happened. And I would like to make sure what happened so it doesn’t happen again. 340 engine, it was built and running when I bought it a couple of years ago. Started not running well after all different attempts at tuning etc, so I pulled it while doing some other work to the car and disassembled it. Found a cam lobe starting to go and a divot in a lifter. Went ahead and pulled it all the way apart cleaned and inspected everything. All of it looked like new, pistons (lots of carbon on piston tops) but other wise looked really good, rings, bearings etc all look good Previous owner told me it was fresh but wasn’t sure. Anyway put a new cam in it, timing chain and gears all new gaskets etc. followed the cam break in precisely. It’s a lunati cam, I used their break in oil and cam lube. I had a helper watching coolant level, oil leaks etc. all went well. Changed the oil, used valvolone vr1 and reinstalled my inner springs. Was out driving it last Saturday and noticed what sounded like a lifter ticking. Oil pressure and temp were good. Pulled over and cked it, sounded like a lifter but wasn’t terrible, so I turned around to head home, only a couple of miles. The further I drove it the worse it got. Pulled the valve covers to ck it and found a lifter that was basically doing nothing, the rocker arm just flopping around, but only one of them. I like to never got the lifter out of its bore, it would move up and down but would not come out. Finally got it and it’s chewed all to crap. The cam lobe is toast and the lifter looks like it was stuck in its bore and the cam just carved a 1/4 notch on it. Is this possibly an oiling issue. It was the exhaust lobe for cylinder number 8. Could it have gotten some trash in the oil path and caused it not to oil and stick? Anybody seen this or have any ideas. I can take a good lifter and it slides in the bore with no issues. Smh. Thanks and again sorry for the lengthy post.
 
It failed to rotate, probably something wrong with lifter bore. Did you check it for smooth rotation prior to installing the valve gear? Is VR-1 a high zinc oil? I add the GM Zinc additive at every oilchange just to prevent this kindof thing.

You are gonna have to do something with that lifter bore.
Is it the same one as went down previously?
 
Yes the zr1 is supposed to be high in zinc. None of the lifters seemed to have any issues when I installed them. They all moved freely. No it was not the same lifter as before.
 
Well I think the obvious question here is it the same cam lobe that wasted the last time?
 
ktcnn94 said:
No, it was a different lobe.
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Well definitely looks like you're going to be checking everything out again. When you put the new cam in it I assume it didn't have any higher of a lift than the old one? As in you checked to make sure how much room you had before coil bind? I'm just spitballing of course I have no idea and I doubt anybody else does that ain't looking at it.
 
j par said:
Well definitely looks like you're going to be checking everything out again. When you put the new cam in it I assume it didn't have any higher of a lift than the old one? As in you checked to make sure how much room you had before coil bind? I'm just spitballing of course I have no idea and I doubt anybody else does that ain't looking at it.
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yeah, it's kind of a crapshoot, diagnosing from afar. But this points out what I've said for quite awhile: it's a good idea, to check and make sure pushrods are spinning on a fresh rebuild. If the pushrods are spinning, the lifters are spinning, and that is important for new (and old) cams and lifters to live. I've suggested drilling holes on the inside facing wall of some old v.covers and temporarily installing them so that you can view the spinning(hopefully) pushrods on initial start up. After cam break in, if all is well, you can remove them and install your permanent v. covers.
FYI. I've also cut the tops off some valve covers so that I can see if the rockers are oiling properly.
 
Thanks for the replies and advice. I do agree it’s nearly impossible to diagnose something by a description of what’s going on without actually being there and having hands on. Just thought I’d reach out and see if anyone had seen this before. And if so what they had found was the cause. Obviously I will be much more careful about checking everything as I put it back together. Would you guys suggest complete disassembly and having this thing hot tanked to clear any metal from the oil passages etc? Thanks
 
ktcnn94 said:
Thanks for the replies and advice. I do agree it’s nearly impossible to diagnose something by a description of what’s going on without actually being there and having hands on. Just thought I’d reach out and see if anyone had seen this before. And if so what they had found was the cause. Obviously I will be much more careful about checking everything as I put it back together. Would you guys suggest complete disassembly and having this thing hot tanked to clear any metal from the oil passages etc? Thanks
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I don't know that hot tanking is necessary, BUT DEFINITELY buy yourself a good set of oil gallery brushes, long and short handled brushes and thoroughly scrub all the internal surfaces, oil galleries, all the bolt holes with hot soapy water until everything is spotless. If you have access to a pressure washer, you could use that, too. Then spray it thoroughly with wd40, and blow it off with compressed air. You can use solvent, cut with some ATF to thoroughly wash every individual part until they are spotless. Don't neglect the oil passages in the crank, and the oil pump, inside of rocker shafts, rocker stand holes, every nook and cranny.
When every part is thoroughly clean, inspect every part. When you are satisfied you can reassemble, using clean oil with zinc, and good assembly lube. Use FSM and whatever other guides you can find to help with reassembly. Make sure cam bearing oil holes line up with oil passages in block. Make sure ALL(there's a bunch of 'em) the oil gallery plugs are in place. Search FSM and FABO threads for their locations. Make sure oil spit holes on connecting rods are facing toward cam. When done, prelube engine, making sure you are getting oil to the rocker shafts and rockers. Use a good oil filter, there are plenty of sources on the Internet comparing them.
 
If that #8E lifter was chewed out at the end like you describe, then that is a LOT of metal that has gone into the engine. The smart thing to do is to at least get the pan and intake off and inspect and clean, and it's smater to do like you suggest and tear down and boil; there is for sure a TON of metal trash in there. The oil pump has likely pulled in some metal bits and needs replacing IMHO and who know if a few metal bits have dropped into bores and worked their way up onto the piston skirts.

Do you recall if that lifter originally slid into its bore tight? Once you get into it, I'd take a few other lifters and slide into that bore to check fit; lifters DO have variations in diameter. Inspect it for a piece of debris from the prior failure.

And I'd not worry over the lubrication of that lifter.... the main flow into the engine goes right by that lifter first thing.

As per post #7, I've got a set of cut off vlave covers just for watching. Plus, you can mark the pushrods with chalk or grease pencil and rotate the engine over several times when it is all assembled with cam lube and see the pushrods rotate that way.

Can you list your last cam and the valve springs used?
 
lifter bores can be measured. all lifter diameters should be measured. I like the thick gray lifter break in lube on the lobes and lifter bottoms only. spin oil pump with tool , drop in distrib. and fire up and rev between 2000-2500 varying for 15-20 minutes.
 
rustycowll69 said:
I don't know that hot tanking is necessary, BUT DEFINITELY buy yourself a good set of oil gallery brushes, long and short handled brushes and thoroughly scrub all the internal surfaces, oil galleries, all the bolt holes with hot soapy water until everything is spotless. If you have access to a pressure washer, you could use that, too. Then spray it thoroughly with wd40, and blow it off with compressed air. You can use solvent, cut with some ATF to thoroughly wash every individual part until they are spotless. Don't neglect the oil passages in the crank, and the oil pump, inside of rocker shafts, rocker stand holes, every nook and cranny.
When every part is thoroughly clean, inspect every part. When you are satisfied you can reassemble, using clean oil with zinc, and good assembly lube. Use FSM and whatever other guides you can find to help with reassembly. Make sure cam bearing oil holes line up with oil passages in block. Make sure ALL(there's a bunch of 'em) the oil gallery plugs are in place. Search FSM and FABO threads for their locations. Make sure oil spit holes on connecting rods are facing toward cam. When done, prelube engine, making sure you are getting oil to the rocker shafts and rockers. Use a good oil filter, there are plenty of sources on the Internet comparing them.
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Thanks for the advice. This is what I’ll do. What type of soap do you recommend as part of the hot soapy water? Thank you.
 
Marcohotrod said:
lifter bores can be measured. all lifter diameters should be measured. I like the thick gray lifter break in lube on the lobes and lifter bottoms only. spin oil pump with tool , drop in distrib. and fire up and rev between 2000-2500 varying for 15-20 minutes.
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I’ll be sure to check those on reassembly. Thank you.
 
nm9stheham said:
If that #8E lifter was chewed out at the end like you describe, then that is a LOT of metal that has gone into the engine. The smart thing to do is to at least get the pan and intake off and inspect and clean, and it's smater to do like you suggest and tear down and boil; there is for sure a TON of metal trash in there. The oil pump has likely pulled in some metal bits and needs replacing IMHO and who know if a few metal bits have dropped into bores and worked their way up onto the piston skirts.

Do you recall if that lifter originally slid into its bore tight? Once you get into it, I'd take a few other lifters and slide into that bore to check fit; lifters DO have variations in diameter. Inspect it for a piece of debris from the prior failure.

And I'd not worry over the lubrication of that lifter.... the main flow into the engine goes right by that lifter first thing.

As per post #7, I've got a set of cut off vlave covers just for watching. Plus, you can mark the pushrods with chalk or grease pencil and rotate the engine over several times when it is all assembled with cam lube and see the pushrods rotate that way.

Can you list your last cam and the valve springs used?
Click to expand...
After disassembly I was able to try a couple different lifters and they were fine in that bore. I’ll be much more thorough on the reassembly. The cam kit was the lunati 10200703lk with the springs recommended by lunati, I called them and got part numbers. Thank you.
 
OK, those are not extraordinarily high pressure springs. So no particular issue there.

Dishwashing soap is good; it will hold its 'soapiness' longer. A final rinse with scalding hot water that heats up the block will make it dry quickly. Then use ATF as suggested for cleaning the cylinder bores; clean them over and over 'til a fresh paper towel with ATF comes out clean. Clean the lifter bores similarly.

IMHO, a new oil pump is in order as some metal bits may have been through it already.
 
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Also look at the piston skirts. It gets embedded into the skirt.
 
nm9stheham said:
OK, those are not extraordinarily high pressure springs. So no particular issue there.

Dishwashing soap is good; it will hold its 'soapiness' longer. A final rinse with scalding hot water that heats up the block will make it dry quickly. Then use ATF as suggested for cleaning the cylinder bores; clean them over and over 'til a fresh paper towel with ATF comes out clean. Clean the lifter bores similarly.

IMHO, a new oil pump is in order as some metal bits may have been through it already.
Click to expand...
Sounds good. I’ll get on it as soon as time allows. I will order a new pump too. Thank you.
 
nm9stheham said:
OK, those are not extraordinarily high pressure springs. So no particular issue there.

Dishwashing soap is good; it will hold its 'soapiness' longer. A final rinse with scalding hot water that heats up the block will make it dry quickly. Then use ATF as suggested for cleaning the cylinder bores; clean them over and over 'til a fresh paper towel with ATF comes out clean. Clean the lifter bores similarly.

IMHO, a new oil pump is in order as some metal bits may have been through it already.
Click to expand...
yup, hand-dishwashing soap. if you want to throw a little simple green in there, too, that will work. Like he said, hot water is best.
 
One failed lifter can make a big mess, inspect everywhere as mentioned above.
100_1715.JPG
 
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