Torsion bars
A spring is a spring is a spring. And, you are wrong.
I used a coil spring (as I said) because it's easier to visualize, but a torsion bar acts exactly the same way.
A /6 cranked up to the same ride height as a bar that is .880 diameter will have more stored energy. It HAS to. My physics is correct. Your understanding is what's wrong.
A spring is a spring, that's true. But where you go wrong is that different suspensions don't perform the same way. A slant 6 bar cranked up to the same ride height as a larger bar is storing the same amount of energy. That stored energy is equal to the weight of the car.
You think I got the physics wrong? Explain how you put more energy than the weight of the car into a torsion bar. You have no preload. This is why your coil spring example is a bad idea, because you fundamentally don't understand how the torsion bar suspension is working. You're not compressing a 20" tall spring into a 15" space and creating preload. All the torsion bars are the same length, you can't preload them that way. The diameter being different doesn't change the preload, it changes the ride height, and that is made up by different offsets on the hex.
A
I'll say it again. If you have a spring with a 100 pound spring rate, it takes 100 pounds to compress that spring 1 inch. Very simple no?
Now look at a 500 pound spring. It takes 500 pounds to compress the spring 1 inch. You there yet?
Therefore, if what I wrote above is true and correct (and it is) then the exact opposite must be true. To extend the spring 1 inch on the 100 pound spring you must REMOVE 100 pounds from it. To extend the 500 pound spring 1 inch you must REMOVE 500 pounds from it.
You CANT possibly argue that.
Yes, if you have a 100 lb/in spring rate it takes 100 lbs to compress that spring 1". And if you have a 500 lb/in spring rate it takes a 500 lbs to compress that spring 1". Thats true. And the same is true in reverse.
The problem is, no matter which spring you use, the weight being removed is the same. It's the weight of the car that's being transferred back. You're thinking about this all wrong, you need to stop comparing equal heights and work with a fixed weight transfer, because that's not changing.
When you launch, the same amount of energy is being released regardless of which spring you use. The engine is doing the work, not the springs. So if you transfer 100 lbs, the car with 100 lb/in springs will rise 1", the car with 500 lb/in springs will rise .2", and the
same exact 100 lbs of stored energy is released from the springs.
A
Therefore, if you have two springs (IDGAF what type of spring it is, it is math and physics that has been proven forever and you can't change it) of different rates installed to the same height, the spring with the lower rate will have more STORED energy than the spring with the higher rate.
This is simply false for a torsion bar suspension. The stored energy is equal to the weight of the car on that corner. There is no pre-load. That's why you're getting this concept wrong, because this is not a coil suspension with preload.
Therefore, it's always EASIER with a spring of a lower rate to move the front suspension with a lower rate spring. Period.
Let's say I need to move the front suspension 4 inches to get the best hook. With the 100 pound spring, I only need to remove (transfer) 400 pounds from the front end. Simple math. Can't argue that.
With the 500 pound spring, to get the same 4 inches of movement (transfer) you'd need to remove 2000 pounds from the front end. That's simple math. And you don't get to change it.
Your height changes are correct. The problem is, you're comparing different amounts of weight. And that's NOT what's happening. If you're transferring 400 lbs, the 100 lb/in springs will rise 4", assuming you have that much suspension travel. The 500 lb/in springs will move .8". And in both cases,
the stored energy that's been released is 400 lbs, despite the difference in height. Again, that's why drag racers use light springs, because the change in height creates more weight transfer. But the damn springs are releasing the same amount of energy. You can't lift more weight than what the car weighs.
I can post the same math 5 more ways and you'll still argue because you don't get it. That doesn't mean you get to tell people something incorrect just because you don't know it.
The amount of front end separation is controlled by the rate of the spring. The RATE at which it separates is controlled by the shocks extension setting. FACT.
So what I've posted is 100% correct. Chris Alston agrees with me. Dave Morgan agrees with me. Tim McAmis agrees with me. Jerry Bickel agrees with me. Science and math agrees with them.
Sorry, but facts is facts. The simple of it is...the lower spring rate compressed to the same installed height has MORE stored energy. PERIOD. If you don't like my explanation, get the "Doorslammers" book by Dave Morgan. He explains it in more detail.
Not understanding spring rates and shock settings is why so many torsion bar guys leave ET on the table.
You can't post the math "5 different ways". You can use 5 different examples, but in each case the math is exactly the same. The amount of rise is controlled by the rate of the spring, but the amount of weight being removed is the same in both cases, so there's no difference in stored energy release.
What you've posted is not 100% correct. What you've said about the spring rates and how they relate to height changes is correct. But everything you've said about stored energy is incorrect for a torsion bar suspension.
The big names you're referring too are great, but again, not torsion bar suspensions, and they don't agree with
you. I get it, you understand what you have to do in order to get a better launch. But you don't understand WHY, and your explanation of what's happening shows this.
There is no difference in stored energy. The difference in height is because of the difference in spring rates, but the amount of energy released by the springs is the same, even if the height is different. You're looking at the suspension rise from completely the wrong perspective.
