440 Oil Pressure Issues..

-
There is so much wrong here I'm not even going to answer it.

You need to read the post I just made and stop telling people the pickup can be 4 inches off the bottom because no one will read the part that say AS LONG AS ITS SUBMURGED, because it won't be SUBMERGED on a stock pan and that's what we are discussing.


**** ME

I'm not suggesting the pickup should be 4 inches off the bottom, my point is as long as the pump is submerged, be it 10 feet, or just below the surface, It Will pump fluid.
The argument over how far from the bottom is irrelevant in this instance.
 
I'm not suggesting the pickup should be 4 inches off the bottom, my point is as long as the pump is submerged, be it 10 feet, or just below the surface, It Will pump fluid.
The argument over how far from the bottom is irrelevant in this instance.


Really? Did you read post 49? No, you didn't or you wouldn't say how far the pickup is from the bottom of the pan is irrelevant.

Not unless you want to put 20 quarts into it. So yes, it is relevant. Has been since it was designed.
 
Really? Did you read post 49? No, you didn't or you wouldn't say how far the pickup is from the bottom of the pan is irrelevant.

Not unless you want to put 20 quarts into it. So yes, it is relevant. Has been since it was designed.

No, I was probably responding to your previous... comment, when you unleashed that rant.
And you still don't get the point.
The OPs prob is not the pick-ups distance from the bottom of the oil pan ! !
 
Last edited:
No, I was probably responding to your previous... comment when you unleashed that rant.
And you still don't get the point.


No, I get your point and you are correct. But we are discussing and oil pan with limited oil capacity. That pan was too small when they designed it, but to save space and money they made it small and then developed a pickup that sits on the bottom of the pan to pull every last drop of oil out of it you can.

People for decades have thought the pan gets sucked dry. That almost never happens. What happened was someone set the pickup too far off the floor and what little oil in the pan didn't to get picked up.

In reality, the big blocks were way more problematic because they hold more oil than a small block because of the skirted block. A 4 quart pan and skirted block is a formula for disaster. I half quart low and they'd start snagging rod bearings.

So yes, when you can get a solid head of oil over the pickup, it doesn't matter how refer away from the bottom of the container (pan) it is. The OP doesn't have that luxury. He is working with OE junk and needs to deal with it the way the OEM intended it.

I don't want someone to come along and read it doesn't matter where the pickup is as long as there is oil over it, because most guys don't realize how much oil and engine can trap.

I've seen the broken **** that comes from it, and my above quoted discussion was a close approximation of a customer I had. He didn't listen, kicked a rod out and I told him to take his junk elsewhere.

He went to a friend and I told him how to fix it. He didn't. Customer killed another one. My friend did the warranty, fixed it like I told him and then kicked that chump to the curb.

It's not like I'm guessing. I'm not. It's a FACT.
 
I agree with mosta the stuff you say.
However, a 20 qt motor at speed that has less than an inch and oil in the bottom of the pan has issues.
My comments were pump specific, oil pan optional.
 
Last edited:
All this dick measurin ain't helpin the OP one bit. Can we get this back on track?
 
All this dick measurin ain't helpin the OP one bit. Can we get this back on track?


I have no idea what to tell him except his small pan smash didn't cause his issues.

I will say that I've had a thrust main take a **** and slowly loose oil pressure until it was at basically zero. And it didn't make any noise either.

So that may be something to look at as it's easy to check. But his pan to pickup clearance isn't his issue.
 
I have no idea what to tell him except his small pan smash didn't cause his issues.

I will say that I've had a thrust main take a **** and slowly loose oil pressure until it was at basically zero. And it didn't make any noise either.

So that may be something to look at as it's easy to check. But his pan to pickup clearance isn't his issue.

The thing about both big and small blocks is, oil pressure is VERY EASY to verify. Distributor out, intermediate shaft out, NEW, GOOD manual oil pressure gauge installed in the engine, oil pump primer shaft installed in oil pump and give it a whirl. You can't "be 100% sure" of this, that and the other thing, but until you've done that, you don't know jack dammit, yet so many people just slap REFUSE to do it, and it's SO easy. Just makes ZERO sense to me. I've seen crap get hung up right at the point where the oil pressure gauge screws into the block, make the gauge see zero, but the engine still has great pressure. Seen it even move around some and make the gauge go to working again. More than once, in fact. Not a bad idea to remove the fitting where the gauge line screws into the block and inspect it there. Might have some crap in it that the machine shop missed. Wouldn't be the first time. I agree with your assertion that none of his problems come from the damage to the oil pan. Just too insignificant. I would sure as hell be DOING something, rather than battin it around on an internet forum. To the OP, you have the car, not us, so that puts you WAY ahead of the ball game here.
 
Last edited:
There is so much wrong here I'm not even going to answer it.

You need to read the post I just made and stop telling people the pickup can be 4 inches off the bottom because no one will read the part that say AS LONG AS ITS SUBMURGED, because it won't be SUBMERGED on a stock pan and that's what we are discussing.


**** ME
PICK UP HAS GOT TO BE IN OIL, NO DOUBT ! A 13 second car, come on I don't think I`ve ever made a pass in a car that slow ! A 13 second car is a daily driver or a tow truck . LOL
 
PICK UP HAS GOT TO BE IN OIL, NO DOUBT ! A 13 second car, come on I don't think I`ve ever made a pass in a car that slow ! A 13 second car is a daily driver or a tow truck . LOL



Doesn't matter the ET. The fact is what I've posted. I don't care what anyone else says. The OP doesn't have an issue with a smashed pan.
 
Yes, YR is absolutely correct, the SM say's "touching" for the pickup. It allows maximum use of the available oil quantity in the sump.
However, from a "smashed pan" point of view it seems logical to me, the more you restrict the open area of the pickup, the harder it will be to draw needed volume of oil up to the pump to maintain a pressure.
IMO, the pan smash also has the potential of compromising the pickup screen. Should the screen allow large enough particles of umbrella seal, gasket material, or whatever through, it WILL lock up the pump rotors. And fact is, locked up rotors won't always shear an intermediate hex. Been that route.

upload_2018-8-27_9-17-2.png
 
Thanks everybody for the input.

Yellowrose: I'm sold on the touching the pan thing. Thanks for taking the time to explain. With regards to you analogy with the water/wife/pan thing. I think she'd be uber pissed....as she's my ex. LOL
 
Thanks everybody for the input.

Yellowrose: I'm sold on the touching the pan thing. Thanks for taking the time to explain. With regards to you analogy with the water/wife/pan thing. I think she'd be uber pissed....as she's my ex. LOL



All the more reason to test it on her! Don't matter now unless it's a FWB deal.
 
SOLVED....not fixed, but solved.

So....beat the pan back, got a new pickup for peace of mind. Mounted the pickup FLUSH with bottom of pan. Buttoned it all up, filled with oil, filled filter with oil.

Went to priming with the drill again. Got 38psi on the gauge.

Fired it...no pressure. WTF!?

Little pool of oil on the floor below engine...traced it back to the oil pump. Big bolt/plug on the rear of the pump has backed out 1/8"...it's dripping oil from there. I'm assuming that the Relief pluger/spring assembly.

Anyway...if it's leaking oil there, it's certainly sucking air. So FOUND the problem!!!

It's totally inaccessible though. Looks like I've had to loosen/remove a motor mount to gain some sort of access.

When I installed this engine, I did it from the bottom. I'm thinking I'll loosen the mount and put a bottle jack under the engine to lift it a little. First time doing this. Anybody have any good recommendations for where/how to jack it up??

I have an engine hoist also...think it'd be easier to remove the carb and lift the engine from a lifting plate?? Space in my garage is kinda limited with the car nosed in. Not sure I can fit the hoist in front of the car where it's at.



IMG_7351.JPG
 
Lol, NOT on the pan sump!
How much do ya' need to go? Do you have a shroud around the fan? Be careful there. You don't want to be lifting the whole car if something bottoms.
A 2 X 2 along the pan rail maybe.
 
Lol, NOT on the pan sump!
How much do ya' need to go? Do you have a shroud around the fan? Be careful there. You don't want to be lifting the whole car if something bottoms.
A 2 X 2 along the pan rail maybe.
Haha...you’ve seen how i treat my pan Not sure how much i need. It’s pretty tight down there. Picking up kid from school now, but I’ll get back at it shortly. I’m certain it’s gonna be super easy and lots of fun next project is going to be a skid plate...and maybe raise the car an inch
 
Yes, that is the relief, but it is on the pressure side of the pump not suction, so the theory of an air leak doesn't work. However, backed out reduces the spring tension and therefore oil pressure. You need to remove it, the spring (note any shims installed with the spring) and the poppet valve. Polish the poppet well, ensure it is all clean and put it back together. There is a copper crush gasket under the loose fitting.

Easiest way will be to gently support (lift) the engine from below with a piece of wood on the oil pan and bottle or floor jack. You might have to remove the engine mount for access.

Funny, yesterday i put the new (to me) 440 in my 55. The oil pump had been leaking so I removed it and changed the gasket and o ring. Once back in the the car I looked up from below and was surprised to see a drop of oil hanging off that same fitting. When I reached up it was only finger tight...... mine is much more accessible though.
 
Glad you have it figured out.

Now you just have to get to it.

I agree...take the spring, any shims and the relief valve out and clean the hell out of it.


Then you should be golden.
 
some freaky things happen. hope that does it
 
Doesn't matter the ET. The fact is what I've posted. I don't care what anyone else says. The OP doesn't have an issue with a smashed pan.
A stocker that is driven on the street and never hotrodded can probly get by w/ the pick up on the bottom. A well driven drag or street car cant in my opinion. I personally have never seen a factory "any brand" w/ a pick up on the bottom of the pan, close but no cigar!
 
Glad ur making progress. I have did many sb and B.B. engines with stock pans and pick ups as all of them have had the pick up touching the pan. I set it up without the gasket, then install with gasket. Been doing this way for more than 40 years. I have also seen an oil pump fail slowly on a small block. Kim
 
Glad ur making progress. I have did many sb and B.B. engines with stock pans and pick ups as all of them have had the pick up touching the pan. I set it up without the gasket, then install with gasket. Been doing this way for more than 40 years. I have also seen an oil pump fail slowly on a small block. Kim

We had a new oil pump that didn`t pump a lick , right out of the box. That's when I built an oil pump drive tool. Ended up putting the orig. hemi pump back on.
 
-
Back
Top