Problems installing new pushrods!

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LovetheA's

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I’m in the process of installing my custom length pushrods and Harland Sharp Roller Rockers onto my 383 with upgraded edelbrock rpm performer heads. I think there are a couple problems I’ve run into where I could use the expertise on the boards.
First I had custom pushrods made because my OEM pushrods I was using with my older 915 heads aren’t long enough for the new Eddie heads. So now I’m have set up my rockers dropped in my used hydraulic lifters and custom pushrods. I was in the process of getting all the slack out for the rockers and was going to set the lash.
Now here is where I have issues. I noticed that on a couple of the lifters they feel very spongy and move up and down quite a bit. When I tightened them down I had to drop the pivot point on the rocker so low that it looks as if they won’t work and I can’t lock in the lash. On the other cylinders where the lifters don’t feel spongy the pivot ball only shows about 3 threads.
Is it because the lifters have been out for the car for some time and they are not pumped up? Or is that the lifters are going bad?
Should I order longer pushrods so that there are less threads above the pivot ball when setting lash?
I have included a couple photos showing how far I had to adjust to accommodate the spongy lifters and also the setting on the lifters that felt solid.
I just want to get the motor back together and keep running into obstacles as I am trying to learn. Thanks
Carl

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LovetheA's said:
I’m in the process of installing my custom length pushrods and Harland Sharp Roller Rockers onto my 383 with upgraded edelbrock rpm performer heads. I think there are a couple problems I’ve run into where I could use the expertise on the boards.
First I had custom pushrods made because my OEM pushrods I was using with my older 915 heads aren’t long enough for the new Eddie heads. So now I’m have set up my rockers dropped in my used hydraulic lifters and custom pushrods. I was in the process of getting all the slack out for the rockers and was going to set the lash.
Now here is where I have issues. I noticed that on a couple of the lifters they feel very spongy and move up and down quite a bit. When I tightened them down I had to drop the pivot point on the rocker so low that it looks as if they won’t work and I can’t lock in the lash. On the other cylinders where the lifters don’t feel spongy the pivot ball only shows about 3 threads.
Is it because the lifters have been out for the car for some time and they are not pumped up? Or is that the lifters are going bad?
Should I order longer pushrods so that there are less threads above the pivot ball when setting lash?
I have included a couple photos showing how far I had to adjust to accommodate the spongy lifters and also the setting on the lifters that felt solid.
I just want to get the motor back together and keep running into obstacles as I am trying to learn. Thanks
Carl

View attachment 1715271259

View attachment 1715271260
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That’s a lot of threads showing. I’d like to see 2/3 threads, that’s looks like 5/6. Might run into tapping from touching the walls. Did you adjust them on the base circle of the cam? Spinning them back and forth between your fingers until they get tight then adding the manufacturers specs is an easier way to go. Some will feel spongy unless you have primmed the oiling system, the stronger valve springs tend to push the oil out of the lifters after engine is shut off.

Jake
 
I am curious as to why you would check pushrod length with used lifters? They should be THE lifters you intend on using with that camshaft. ANything else might skew your results........as you are experiencing.
 
RustyRatRod
I should of been clearer. When I say used lifters I meant I’m putting the lifters back in that I was using with the other pushrods and 915 heads that were on. I didn’t see a reason to buy new hydraulic lifters if the old ones were fine to use.
 
Jake
I half some questions to what your response was. I was told an easy way to adjust lash on rockers is tighten rockers down on pushrods until you can’t spin them by hand. You do this with all the rockers as you spin the crank around 90 deg at a time until you have been around at least 2 full revolutions. This way all the rockers are tightened down sufficiently then set lash. For Harland sharp 1/2 turn to lock in lash.
Is it going to be a problem if I set the lash and some lifters aren’t pumped up because during adjustment the spring pressure pushes out some oil from the lifter? Will the pumped up lifter now be set incorrectly and put too much pressure on pushrod?
Carl
 
Your lifters have just bleed down...

Try to pump them back up manually - remove one at a time (or mark which position they came out of) and then cut an old oil container to be about 3" taller than the lifter... Put the lifter in it and fill it with oil until the lifter is completely submerged.... Then use one of the push rods to press the plunger down and see if any air bubbles come up... Keep cycling the lifter plunger until it "stiffens up"... Then reinstall and adjust...
 
LovetheA's said:
Jake
I half some questions to what your response was. I was told an easy way to adjust lash on rockers is tighten rockers down on pushrods until you can’t spin them by hand. You do this with all the rockers as you spin the crank around 90 deg at a time until you have been around at least 2 full revolutions. This way all the rockers are tightened down sufficiently then set lash. For Harland sharp 1/2 turn to lock in lash.
Is it going to be a problem if I set the lash and some lifters aren’t pumped up because during adjustment the spring pressure pushes out some oil from the lifter? Will the pumped up lifter now be set incorrectly and put too much pressure on pushrod?
Carl
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Alum. heads will take longer pushrods-------------
Tighten them down till they just have the clearance out of them, NOT preloaded , just no slack, Then adjust ur preload, "going thru the cycle of course" . I always used 3/4 turn, but that was a small block chevy, don`t worry about collapsed or pumped up, they will pump up on start up------Then do it again.
 
RustyRatRod said:
I am curious as to why you would check pushrod length with used lifters? They should be THE lifters you intend on using with that camshaft. ANything else might skew your results........as you are experiencing.
Click to expand...

alum. heads---
 
famous bob said:
Alum. heads will take longer pushrods-------------
Tighten them down till they just have the clearance out of them, NOT preloaded , just no slack, Then adjust ur preload, "going thru the cycle of course" . I always used 3/4 turn, but that was a small block chevy, don`t worry about collapsed or pumped up, they will pump up on start up------Then do it again.
Click to expand...

Ok nevermind. lol
 
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I copied this off of Comp Cams tech for Mopar. You have the intake off so you can see the plunger in the lifter which will help you to get a “feel” for where the zero lash is and then see the preload. The preload might be different for different manufacturers. The only thing I will add, and not trying to muddy the waters, is that some manufacturers used to recommend lifters that had a heavier retaining clip for the lifter guts. This was so that if the pre load was not enough and the plunger contacted the retaining clip, it wouldn’t allow the clip to pop out, which in turn could allow the plunger to come out of the lifter. This was many years ago and I’m not positive that it still applies today.
 
LovetheA's said:
RustyRatRod
I should of been clearer. When I say used lifters I meant I’m putting the lifters back in that I was using with the other pushrods and 915 heads that were on. I didn’t see a reason to buy new hydraulic lifters if the old ones were fine to use.
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In an effort to keep it simple and VERY accurate, consider this.

*Confirm you put the lifters back into the exact same hole you pulled them out from. Kept them in order, so to speak.

Use one of those small wire gauge measuring tools that some folks use to measure their welding tip orifices with. They have a 90* bend in the wire and typically span 10-12 sizes or gauges of wire. Use one to measure how far down the lifter plunger is from the retaining clip. Your lifter manufacturer should have the exact spec on their web site.
You will have to have the intake off to gain access to the tops of the lifters for the measurement.

I hate to say it but it looks to me like your pushrods are too short, but it could be how you have them adjusted. The geometry of the rocker arms to the valve tips is also an unknown.

I would highly recommend getting a hold of Mike at B3 Racing. He knows more about setting up the geometry of the rocker arms than most people care to get into the weeds about. He is very helpful and has great customer service. I have had amazing success with his help. My motor is smoother and revs easier than any motor I've had in the last 3 decades. In my case it did take a community to get my motor set-up right. A Mopar specific community.

The pictures below are before and after Mike's geometry correction kit. My valve train has never been this stable before. I'm running Manton's Stage 5 - 7/16ths pushrods. They are friggin' awesome.

Rocker before1 (Medium).JPG


Rockers2 (Medium).JPG


Rockers3 (Medium).JPG
 
I guess I'm not understanding your issue. Yo are setting lifter preload - not lash, right? So the important thing is not the sponginess of the plunger - but the amount of preload you give it. Once the oil pressure comes up they won't be spongy. I don't feel the "no freeplay then 1/2 turn" or whatever works. I can't feel no freeplay reliably and I've been doing this for 3 decades. Leave the intake off, and either go by eye, or use the wire gages as was mentioned. Put the preload on them (.050 is where I'd try to land it) and go.
 
#1 pre-oil the motor until oil is pouring over the valve stems . Do this and at the same time rotate motor in the direction of rotation . #2 Bring #1 piston to TDC on the compression stroke . #3 Loosen the adjusters on #1 cylinder . #4 Turn adjuster down while spinning the pushrod with your fingers until you can't spin the pushrod . #5 turn adjuster 1/2 turn more and tighten locknut . Continue this process by rotating the engine clockwise to each firing event . 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 . If you are using stock stamped rockers you ovisouly can't do this but you can rotate motor to see if lifters are preloaded . If not preloaded , pre-oil again . Still no go , you have collapsed lifters and they need to be replaced (all of them)
 
Thanks you everyone for all the feedback. I believe I have a much better understanding of how things work. If you look at the second pick you can see the upper rocker hold down that has been machined by Mike at B3 racing. I had the geometry kit made by Mike now my rocker roller tip is right where it should. I guess I wasn’t correctly understanding the different terminology lifter pre-load, zero lash etc. If the lifter is spongy because it hasn’t pumped up with oil you have to adjust down the rockers an additional .050 thousands of so to account for this on initial start up. The motor has been apart about 6 months. I do have the intake and carburetor off. I’m using OEM mopar hydraulic lifters. When I have worked my way around spinning the crank from cylinder to cylinder tightening the pushrods until they don’t have any play then I can add in the lifter pre-load. This can vary from lifter manufacturer to manufacturer. Once they are set then I’m at zero lash and I turn approx 1/2 turn from there and lock in with nut. I’m using Harland Sharps. Then when the motor is running and everything fully loaded with oil I can recheck.
 
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LovetheA's said:
Thanks you everyone for all the feedback. I believe I have a much better understanding of how things work. If you look at the second pick you can see the upper rocker hold down that has been machined by Mike at B3 racing. I had the geometry kit made by Mike now my rocker roller tip is right where it should. I guess I wasn’t correctly understanding the different terminology lifter pre-load, zero lash etc. If the lifter is spongy because it hasn’t pumped up with oil you have to adjust down the rockers an additional .050 thousands of so to account for this on initial start up. The motor has been apart about 6 months. I do have the intake and carburetor off. I’m using OEM mopar hydraulic lifters. When I have worked my way around spinning the crank from cylinder to cylinder tightening the pushrods until they don’t have any play then I can add in the lifter pre-load. This can vary from lifter manufacturer to manufacturer. Once they are set then I’m at zero lash and I turn approx 1/2 turn from there and lock in with nut. I’m using Harland Sharps. Then when the motor is running and everything fully loaded with oil I can recheck.
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Sounds like u got it. No tools needed to take the slack only out, then preload 1/2 to 3/4 turn. I had a comp hyd. roller cam that I had to go to a full turn ,"suggested by an 18 time national record holder" , to cut down the valve train noise. It helped, but I ended up going to solid roller , guess what, it was about half as noisy !!
I would prelube as suggested above first---
 
Glad you understand . Suggestion : since you live in Conn. hook up with" Mopars in Motion". It is a Mopar based club with a lot of great people that share your interests . Also, get a "Motors " repair manual from many of the swap meets in your area . Tells you a lot of stuff . About $20.00 used
 
LovetheA's said:
I guess I wasn’t correctly understanding the different terminology lifter pre-load, zero lash etc. If the lifter is spongy because it hasn’t pumped up with oil you have to adjust down the rockers an additional .050 thousands of so to account for this on initial start up.
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I'm not sure you are getting it. Forget the sponginess of the lifter. Reread Mopers #13 post. zero lash is when the plunger is at the top of the lifter body pressed against the retaining clip.
Oops, I somehow managed to screw up the Quote/ Reply thingey.
 
forphorty said:
I'm not sure you are getting it. Forget the sponginess of the lifter. Reread Mopers #13 post. zero lash is when the plunger is at the top of the lifter body pressed against the retaining clip.
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yep, with the pushrod resting in the 'cup' of the lifter tighten the adjuster 'til the rocker arm just pinches the pushrod and it won't spin freely between finger and thumb. then 1/2 to 3/4 turn to preload the lifter.
neil.
 

That doesn't sound right, so just to reiterate; all 16 of the lifter's internal pushrod cups should simply be pre-loaded .050" or there abouts from the retaining clip using the rocker arm adjusters. (make sure all the lifters can still spin freely in their bores when you put them in)

The clearance can be measured with a wire gauge, as mentioned above It doesn't matter if you can push the plunger down more or if it feels spongy when you do push it down more, as the lifters will pump up in a matter of seconds or a few minutes at the most.

Assemble the rest of the motor, pre-oil it with a pre-oiling rod & a drill, set the initial timing and fire it up. Your cam is already mated to the lifters. Hopefully, you got each lifter back into the hole it came out of, or you may lose a cam lobe.

After you get the timing set and have heat cycled the motor you can double check everything to make sure the .050" clearance has been maintained, or use the method mentioned above. Many people never touch them again after the initial adjustment. It can be a bit deceiving when trying to find the zero clearance spot to turn the adjuster another 1/2 or 3/4 turn. It just takes patients and for me anymore, it takes the use of my reader glasses.

I've experimented with the amount of the additional turn in from zero clearance from 1/8 of a turn all the way to 2 turns. That's the beauty of hydraulic lifters. They "self-adjust" to take up the remaining slack automatically. There is a sweep spot, but its more of a range of plunger preload.
 
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Carl. This is how I’ve did it for years without any problems at all. Instead of spinning the pushrod try lifting the pushrod up and down, when u get the clearance out u will be at zero preload.Then u can adjust the preload 1/4 turn. Then ur done. Of course that is with the lifter on the base circle. Kim
 
Thanks a ton everyone for all the info. Just to be clear if I was on cylinder one TDC on compression stroke I would adjust the intake lifter when it is bottomed out on the the lowest point of the cam. This is evident when the exhaust lifter is all the way at the top and just starts to drop down. To adjust the exhaust it is the opposite process.
Carl
 
Follow this chart. It's the foolproof way to be sure the lifter you're adjusting is on the base circle of the cam:
BBM-Mopar-Valve-Lash-Adjustment-Chart.jpg
 
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