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Jadaharabi

Jadaharabi

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Calling on all you metallurgist.

Is there a simple way to heat treat the tip of the intermediate shaft to harden it? To keep it from breaking when using hi volume, high pressure oil pumps?
This is for the shaft in the magnum engine.

Always wanted to do a poll on here.
 
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glow it red hot and oil (or water) quench it, forged in fire style. It will harden it. Then you heat it again and let it air cool. if you dont heat a 2nd time it will be brittle.

How to Temper Steel
 
This would be awesome to find out, I know I have at least one extra LA dist drive gear lying around, I'd need 2 for a proper test though to see how much torque it takes to break the tip off an untreated one vs. a heat-treated piece. If I can't find a second one I might try grabbing one from the junkyard next time I take a trip over there.

Has anyone actually tested how much torque it takes to break the tip off the oil pump drive shaft?
 
MOPEkidD-3 said:
This would be awesome to find out, I know I have at least one extra LA dist drive gear lying around, I'd need 2 for a proper test though to see how much torque it takes to break the tip off an untreated one vs. a heat-treated piece. If I can't find a second one I might try grabbing one from the junkyard next time I take a trip over there.

Has anyone actually tested how much torque it takes to break the tip off the oil pump drive shaft?
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I can tell you, from experience, that the hex socket in the oil pump will break before the hardened hex on the intermediate shaft.
 
j par said:
What was the end result of that? I'm bracing myself and hoping it's not as bad as I think....
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the hex socket just splits lengthwise down one or two of the points of the hex socket. the intermediate shaft will just spin in the socket, and you'll lose all oil pressure.
 
if it's an a-engine, it's a PITA to fix. If it's a B-engine, it's simple to fix. Of course if you don't catch on right away, then that would lead to a lot more problems no matter which engine you got.
 
Quench is usually a specific oil.
As a substitute i have used the dirtiest diesel motor oil as a quench.
Dont breathe the fumes.
I know diddly about metallurgy,
And testing theory on oil pump drives you would want a big handful of them to prove you have developed a process.
 
As I recall my brother hardened up wire/rod straight cut machine shearing dies that were made out of a short length of round stock. Nothing more than a certain hole size in the middle of the round. Heat it to orange and promptly drop it in a quart of oil. Allow to cool. Then re-heat till dull red and let cool. The only test was to put it in the machine and see how many rods ya' could cut. Easy to swap in another when needed. Maybe not so easy (or cheap) with failure in an engine.
 
Jadaharabi said:
Calling on all you metallurgist.

Is there a simple way to heat treat the tip of the intermediate shaft to harden it? To keep it from breaking when using hi volume, high pressure oil pumps?
This is for the shaft in the magnum engine.

Always wanted to do a poll on here.
Click to expand...
Call Tri City Heat Treat. They are in the Quad Cities.

P.S - what we polling?? Shakes? Cakes?? LOL
 
If you want to increase the shear strength of the shaft, a simple hardening process is probably not going to do it. There will be limited depth to the hardening due to the slower cooling of the interior of the shaft; that slower cooling allows the molecular structure not 'fix' in the harder configuration.

I believe that the hardened tip is not for shaft shear strength but simply to help prevent the corners on the shaft's hex from rounding off in the pumpo socket. If you really want a stronger shaft, then IMHO a different shaft material is called for.
 
Jadaharabi said:
.
My poll is favorite flavors.
I forgot a fourth choice being; none of the above.
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I actually like all 3 flavors. Even milkshakes, I order all 3 flavors, depending on what sounds good at the moment :)
 
MOPEkidD-3 said:
This would be awesome to find out, I know I have at least one extra LA dist drive gear lying around, I'd need 2 for a proper test though to see how much torque it takes to break the tip off an untreated one vs. a heat-treated piece. If I can't find a second one I might try grabbing one from the junkyard next time I take a trip over there.

Has anyone actually tested how much torque it takes to break the tip off the oil pump drive shaft?
Click to expand...
If you do this (which would be interesting), then FWIW I'd suggest:
  • Make 2 fine marks parallel to the axis of the shaft near both ends and aligned with some sort of pointers to reference both marks (like a timing mark pointer)
  • Apply torque in gradually increasing increments
  • Release the torque after each increment and check to see if the marks are still aligned
  • Once you reach the torque level where the marks are no longer aligned with their pointers when the torque is released, note that torque level, and if 1 or both marks are out of alignment. This is the tensile torque, which is where permanent deformation occurs and would be good to be able to back compute to the tensile strength of the material. Knowing if one or both marks has gone out of alignment will point to where the shaft is starting to fail.
  • Then torque as hard as you like, even to breaking
  • Of course, you should make a jig similar to the bushing in the block to help avoid bending of the shaft while you apply torque.
 
nm9stheham said:
Do we go into a drawing to win a prize if we answer the poll? LOL
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.
An autographed bent push rod for everybody. I will have my neighbor autograph them.
Wait I have to see if he knows how to sign his name. Or he could just use an X.
 
The hardened tip is ground tapered to the shaft, blue tint. Gear is pinned.

Stock shaft is edge cut where it goes hex to round, that's what can break off and the gear 'not pinned' can spin.

Never knew the magnum intermediate was different, how so? The cams are cast iron still.
 
20190206_121139.jpg

Look at the wear on the tips of these notice that the top one that has the taper isn't showing the damage to the side of the hex like the others are. I am assuming it has a hardened tip.

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Am I to assume that Magnum intermediate gears are pinned to the shaft?

I think the one that's tapered pandan heart and tip is probably something someone else threw in there at some point possibly when the stock one failed
 
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