SB Cam Thrust Plate P5249637 no longer made? Only tensioner now?

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Factory 340

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Used with dripper,, This is how I install it but I also use the bolt with the hole in it . You can see it on the picture of my motor. This way always worked for me so I stick with what has proven itself as reliable.

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Tensioner style which have problems . Just something else to go wrong. Also quality "true roller" chains don't stretch like the cheap "roller" style



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I have factory style if needed
 
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Duane said:
Mopar performance used to sell a high strength cup washer for that because the stock ones used to collapse. So yes yours may have came loose.
No the washer does not control the end play. It merely secures the came gear to the came. The end play is control by the machining of the three components combined. The end play is probably just so oil can get between the parts.
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IIRC the cupped washer flexes/preloads and provides a constant tension on the cam to prevent loosening. The Milodon torrington bearing is correctly positioned as the interior side of the cam is pressure lubed while the outside plate (under the cam cog) is sling lubed and there isnt chain sling from a gear drive.
 
MOPAROFFICIAL said:
I run one in my 340, stabilizes idle timing mostly and perhaps keeps the cam gear from SOME erratic rotation speeds...but i believe during acceleration, constant or otherwise, already keeps the cam timing steady, 'reasonably speaking'.

Mine, used with a aussie billet dbl set, has wear. I don't like the worn particles going into the pan just like I don't want old valve stem seals bunching up in the pickup.

Steady timing reading at idle is the only noticeable thing. Imo

I'm not saying to run one or not run one.
...I just wish they made a spring loaded gear that meshed with the chain instead of a guide .

4.6 ford... that motor will make you hate chain guides.lol
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what if you pre-clearanced the nylon block with a dremel so the block contacts the rollers and not the link endplates? That way the natural wear pattern of the triple spine double roller chain is already established and the nylon filings are not in your oil. I ran a new silent chain with my new tensioner on my 273. What makes a double roller any stronger than a silent chain? I think its the opposite, but they are more likely to stretch. "..While more prone to chain stretch than a roller setup, this type of chain is stronger and lighter. That means it will last longer.." great for OEM, not so good for performance.
 
I am running a tensioner on my new motor to hopefully help stabilize the solid roller valve train and #600+ Open spring pressure.
I might be wrong ? Who knows...
 
Under acceleration the pull side of the chain stays tight. If your chain gets that loose that you need to take up the slack just think how much timing change there is on the pull side. Get a good Chain and throw the tensioner in the garbage

The tensioner set up was installed on the motor that flew apart built by Ryan at Shady Dell. What a joke . Look at the oil grooves he "Machined" in with a "cut off wheel".

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Oldmanmopar said:
Under acceleration the pull side of the chain stays tight. If your chain gets that loose that you need to take up the slack just think how much timing change there is on the pull side. Get a good Chain and throw the tensioner in the garbage

The tensioner set up was installed on the motor that flew apart built by Ryan at Shady Dell. What a joke . Look at the oil grooves he "Machined" in with a "cut off wheel".

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Don,t know if any of you guys have ever run a crank trigger ignition,
But look at your timing with a timing light with a chain and you will indeed see some slight fluctuation of the timing cause by slight slack in the chain. If the timing is fluctuating, so is your cam timing.
Check it again with a crank trigger and it is rock steady.
I would think a tensioner would help this, but a real gear drive is the ultimate.
 
pishta said:
IIRC the cupped washer flexes/preloads and provides a constant tension on the cam to prevent loosening. The Milodon torrington bearing is correctly positioned as the interior side of the cam is pressure lubed while the outside plate (under the cam cog) is sling lubed and there isnt chain sling from a gear drive.
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If the thrust direction of the cam is against the plate, then the Torrington is merely along for the ride. To put a Torrington on the camshaft side would require completely redesigning the cam to accommodate the bearing. Because most serious race builds restrict oil flow to the cam bearings to increase the volume and pressure to the main and rod bearing, the flow coming out of the front cam bearing to the thrust plate is insufficient. That is why I added a trough to my plate to pressure feed the plate and minimize the wear. Three rotating gears under the timing cover will sling as much oil as any chain imho.
 
Duane said:
The keyed cup washer in your pic is the Mopar performance. I use the same one. They hold torque very well.
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Your wrong my son made it and I believe he made a couple extras. He also made some for other builders.

He had to make a new one for the engine and cut the bolt head due to the thinner timing cover this time.

He makes everything. He is making a two tilt fixture for the bed mill to put seats in heads with canted valves.

Factory cover
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new cover
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Oldmanmopar said:
Your wrong my son made it and I believe he made a couple extras. He also made some for other builders.

He had to make a new one for the engine and cut the bolt head due to the thinner timing cover this time.

He makes everything. He is making a two tilt fixture for the bed mill to put seats in heads with canted valves.

Factory cover
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new cover
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Ok I accept that. It is hard to tell without a closeup pic. I have the Mopar performance and they too locate on the keyway.
But any machinist would not have trouble to make his own.
I too have made or modified many parts on my car.
Have a look at my trans mod in my profile.
Nice motor picks. What can you tell us about the motor?
 
Oldmanmopar said:
Factory 340

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This may be a dumb question but how does that top chain sprocket
Not vibrate like crazy with all those hole only on one side.
Looks like it was only supposed to be used with the pump eccentric.


Used with dripper,, This is how I install it but I also use the bolt with the hole in it . You can see it on the picture of my motor. This way always worked for me so I stick with what has proven itself as reliable.

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Tensioner style which have problems . Just something else to go wrong. Also quality "true roller" chains don't stretch like the cheap "roller" style



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I have factory style if needed
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I have a Milodon gear drive on my 408 and you can't even tell it's there. I was hoping to hear that gear drive whine. But, can't hear it.
 
Ive never used one of those tensioners and I never will. I guess I’m glad I bought several of those plates years ago and threw them in my engine assembly box. Shouldn’t be hard to make one if you didn’t have one.
 
pittsburghracer said:
Ive never used one of those tensioners and I never will. I guess I’m glad I bought several of those plates years ago and threw them in my engine assembly box. Shouldn’t be hard to make one if you didn’t have one.
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Heck you probably could just cut off all the guts from the tensioner model and just use the plate lol.
 
mopardude318 said:
I have a Milodon gear drive on my 408 and you can't even tell it's there. I was hoping to hear that gear drive whine. But, can't hear it.
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Yes I was told that the single idler type do not make any noise.
Now those dual idler type make lots of noise lol.
 
Duane said:
If the thrust direction of the cam is against the plate, then the Torrington is merely along for the ride. To put a Torrington on the camshaft side would require completely redesigning the cam to accommodate the bearing. Because most serious race builds restrict oil flow to the cam bearings to increase the volume and pressure to the main and rod bearing, the flow coming out of the front cam bearing to the thrust plate is insufficient. That is why I added a trough to my plate to pressure feed the plate and minimize the wear. Three rotating gears under the timing cover will sling as much oil as any chain imho.
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The lobe tips force the cam to the rear, pulling the cam gear towards the thrust plate. The oil pump drag also pulls the cam toward the back. Torrington bearing in full effect.
 
Duane said:
Yes I was told that the single idler type do not make any noise.
Now those dual idler type make lots of noise lol.
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Who makes a dual idler for a Mopar LA? Only seen the single idler Milodon design.
 
Duane said:
Yes I was told that the single idler type do not make any noise.
Now those dual idler type make lots of noise lol.
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I've never seen a dog bone type for the mopar small block.

I also should have never sold my Billet Timing cover sold by Greg Z from MagnumHP.
 
Duane said:
Ok I accept that. It is hard to tell without a closeup pic. I have the Mopar performance and they too locate on the keyway.
But any machinist would not have trouble to make his own.
I too have made or modified many parts on my car.
Have a look at my trans mod in my profile.
Nice motor picks. What can you tell us about the motor?
Click to expand...


Off the top of my head
Resto block 956 deck 4.070 bore
King bearings
total seal rings, this time.
Indy360-1 heads, A disaster out of the box very poor quality, Seats and bowl blend. also stem height out
686 solid Comp roller
T&D rockers radius d for springs Poor quality out of the box
Smith bros pushrods this time.
Oiling mods several.
1050 quick fuel.
Carter pump
fluiddamper
5500 stall
456 742

I had help from a Troyer modified Nascar shop owner. Tony Hirshman. His son Tony works for Kyle Bush. His son Matt Hirshman is a Champion driver.

They helped with all the plumbing due due cooling problems. I had access to all supplies I needed. Hence all the plumbing on the car . any thing you needed was right there. No ordering and waiting.

Ended up being the radiator was not flowing air .Tubes swelled from a previous motor failure. Took a long time to find that. The rad was new with one failure. Shady Dells build.

His buddies at Carlisle warned me. I didn't listen. They said let him do your Batten heads he was the only one with the guides but don't leave him with any parts you want in your motor. He will switch them out .He did

My son knows all the details of the new motor.

Since then we bought the equipment and do our own work. A new bed mill for block work. and some other machines my son bought recently. He is working on a fixture for head seat work. He also just bought a fixture for truing lifter bores and installing bronze bushings BB , Hemi and SB.

Being able to do our own work is a game changer with cost and quality. Who does the average guy trust with motor work? You can't see whats inside until it's to late.

Oh yeah they had to pay me for all the parts to build this motor. Still lost all the labor cost. I would not give him a third chance. Thats right there were two. One never made it on the Dyno. 2 X-blocks destroyed by Ryan.

You can build a Ford or Chevy off the shelf they sell every combo you can think of. Mopars need good machinist. There are few out there that have the knowledge. And then do they have accurate new equipment.

we couldn't afford a Rottler at over 100k. But these millports came up on Ebay. They build the rottlers . He stole it at $12,500 new still on the pallet. They came from a business that went belly up and are being sold in Buffalo NY. by a salvage company. They are still on ebay . Type in millport. You will never find a new one this cheap in your life time.

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pishta said:
The lobe tips force the cam to the rear, pulling the cam gear towards the thrust plate. The oil pump drag also pulls the cam toward the back. Torrington bearing in full effect.
Click to expand...
The lobes only pull the cam towards the plate if it's a non roller, so not true in every case. The lobes on a roller cam are ground parallel.
The oil pump drag would force the cam against the plate. Especially a high volume pump. Any force pushing the cam against the plate, that load is not taken by the Torrington at all. Yes if there was a force trying to push the cam backwards, then yes the Torrington would take the load. Many of those milodon plates are chewed up on the inside from the thrust pressure and lack of oil.
 
Oldmanmopar said:
Off the top of my head
Resto block 956 deck 4.070 bore
King bearings
total seal rings, this time.
Indy360-1 heads, A disaster out of the box very poor quality, Seats and bowl blend. also stem height out
686 solid Comp roller
T&D rockers radius d for springs Poor quality out of the box
Smith bros pushrods this time.
Oiling mods several.
1050 quick fuel.
Carter pump
fluiddamper
5500 stall
456 742

I had help from a Troyer modified Nascar shop owner. Tony Hirshman. His son Tony works for Kyle Bush. His son Matt Hirshman is a Champion driver.

They helped with all the plumbing due due cooling problems. I had access to all supplies I needed. Hence all the plumbing on the car . any thing you needed was right there. No ordering and waiting.

Ended up being the radiator was not flowing air .Tubes swelled from a previous motor failure. Took a long time to find that. The rad was new with one failure. Shady Dells build.

His buddies at Carlisle warned me. I didn't listen. They said let him do your Batten heads he was the only one with the guides but don't leave him with any parts you want in your motor. He will switch them out .He did

My son knows all the details of the new motor.

Since then we bought the equipment and do our own work. A new bed mill for block work. and some other machines my son bought recently. He is working on a fixture for head seat work. He also just bought a fixture for truing lifter bores and installing bronze bushings BB , Hemi and SB.

Being able to do our own work is a game changer with cost and quality. Who does the average guy trust with motor work? You can't see whats inside until it's to late.

Oh yeah they had to pay me for all the parts to build this motor. Still lost all the labor cost. I would not give him a third chance. Thats right there were two. One never made it on the Dyno. 2 X-blocks destroyed by Ryan.

You can build a Ford or Chevy off the shelf they sell every combo you can think of. Mopars need good machinist. There are few out there that have the knowledge. And then do they have accurate new equipment.

we couldn't afford a Rottler at over 100k. But these millports came up on Ebay. They build the rottlers . He stole it at $12,500 new still on the pallet. They came from a business that went belly up and are being sold in Buffalo NY. by a salvage company. They are still on ebay . Type in millport. You will never find a new one this cheap in your life time.

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I never let anyone assemble my engine. I always worry that they will not take the time to check everything. Especially clearances.
What do you think caused the two failures you are blaming on shady dell. What parts did he swap on you.
 
Duane said:
I never let anyone assemble my engine. I always worry that they will not take the time to check everything. Especially clearances.
Click to expand...
Yes... as someone famously said on this site "No cares as much about your [stuff] as you do." And I'll add: "It's less complicated when you screw up yourself".
 
Duane said:
I never let anyone assemble my engine. I always worry that they will not take the time to check everything. Especially clearances.
What do you think caused the two failures you are blaming on shady dell. What parts did he swap on you.
Click to expand...
The first motor He decked my block to 890 without telling me. My diamond pistons were not there. because he couldn't use my rods due to the pin being to big to keep it under the cut deck.To use the SB CHevy rods he had Offset grind another crank. Where did My 4 " Callies go or my Carrillo Bullet rods The intake was only about 1/8 inch thick. from him cutting it.

The worst was he charged me $450 to CNC fly cut the pistons. This is where he became liable. The motor came apart on startup after some dyno pulls. Come to find out the valves were hitting the pistons.

I drove out to Port Matilda. Pa. He was not there . But his brother was. There was a sprint motor there that came apart the same way and destroyed the car. Talking to his brother led to to fly cut method they used.

He stated this in front of two machinist I took with me.
They had a long stem file cutter they ran though my Guides and cut the pistons in the motor using my heads as their tool. They cracked most of the guide out of the heads. I asked his brother how this could work because the piston would rock. He said They do it after assembly. I could not believe my ears. I didn't know if I should laugh or cry.

I took the parts he got me. New crank , Rods, pistons. T&D Rockers that were terrible. Indy heads in which the quality was Real bad. They must have been returns. Here is a picture of the first X-block batten headed motor in the car. It was a 428 Made 593@7200

I sold the X-Block I got from them. Ray Barton gave me the resto block in with a deal for a couple 68 Darts and Barracdas over a Pizza. Then I started over. I Could have bought a Hemi for the total cost of a small block build.

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pishta said:
The lobe tips force the cam to the rear, pulling the cam gear towards the thrust plate. The oil pump drag also pulls the cam toward the back. Torrington bearing in full effect.
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Duane, you got me on the oil pump drag direction! My high school engineering degree failed me when I took a second look at the cut and direction of the teeth: drive side against a resitance (oil pump) will force cam forward. Now the way the cam is retained onto the thrust plate still does not negate a torrington bearing in any manner. The cam cannot go forward due to thrust plate. The cam cannot go backwards due to cam gear on opposite side of thrust plate (thickness .1xx) with the camshafts relief step setting the initial clearance (.1xx +y) so you have a Delta of y which I'm understanding is the thrust tolerance? The Milodon uses a machined thrust plate dimension and with the addition of the torrington bearing, may not use the stock cam step to set thrust tolerance (?). It has to use a positive pressure on the torrington bearing creating no thrust variance. The cam has no forward/backward movement from any force that will relieve pressure on the torrington bearing. Interestingly, the Milodon 13600 instructions do not have a cam bolt torque. Is the Milodon machined thrust thickness the same as the Mopar stock piece? Damn, its on the block and I cant measure it! You would think they would have shims available to adjust this spec.
Trying to think how the torrington bearing would chew anything with its 2 hardened races on each side of the rollers unless someone forgot the races?
<<EDIT>> the torrington roller bearing cage has a slight cup to it, maybe that is the only positive force on it if it uses the OEM thrust spec?
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