Lca bushing help.

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Yes, the polyurethane bushings use a slip fit. That's a polyurethane to steel interface, and they're designed that way. And honestly, I don't even use stock LCA pins with those, I use greaseable LCA pins. The greaseable LCA pins are a single piece, there's no step down for an inner shell to press on. So with a greaseable LCA pin and the older insert-style poly bushing design you totally eliminate the inner shell. You can use stock LCA pins with poly bushings, but then you need to re-use the original inner shell. And either way, the poly bushings should be TIGHT on the LCA pins. Like those Proforged poly bushings that come with inner and outer shells. Try and push the inner sleeve out of those things. You'll need at least a vise, more likely a press. They don't just slip in and out loosely.

A "slip fit" steel-on-steel joint is a terrible idea. The whole idea is that the LCA pins are a press fit into the inner shell, and the rubber is a friction fit on the inner and outer shells. There's no clearance to create slop, all you get for movement in the pin is from the rubber bushing. If the LCA pin slips in and out of the inner shell, you've got slop. Not to mention a steel on steel joint you can't lubricate. Where exactly are you going to drill though the LCA to go through the shell and put a zerk? The outer shell is surrounded by the torsion bar lever and the load bearing parts of the LCA. If the pin can slide around in the steel inner shell, it will hammer that thing oblong in no time at all out on the street.

As for the LCA itself, it's not "trapped". The torsion bars can slide back and forth a good 1/4" inside the sockets. If your LCA slides back a forth a 1/4", you have serious problems. The strut rods (not the torsion bars) are supposed to hold the LCA's in place. Which is why I use adjustable strut rods when I change over to poly LCA bushings. The length of the strut rod is a lot more critical if you use poly LCA bushings. Partly because the LCA can slide a little, but mostly because there's very little give in the poly bushing. So if the strut rod isn't exactly the right length the LCA will bind. But the strut rods still depend on a tight fit between the LCA and the LCA pin to keep that end aligned.

Like everything else, the stock LCA pins have a tolerance. I measured a bunch of them when I switched over to Delrin LCA bushings because the fit is very important with those. And like most things Mopar, of the 4 sets I measured no 2 sets were identical in diameter. Regardless of the style bushing used, the LCA pin has to be a tight fit. If an OE style rubber bushing is used, it has to be a press fit like it was designed to be. If it's not, you need new LCA pins or a different set of bushings. If the poly insert style bushings are used (the kind sold with no shells), they have to be a tight fit to the re-used outer shells AND a tight fit to either the greaseable pin or the re-used stock pin and inner shell. Yes technically it's a slip fit, but it has to be a tight slip fit. If not, just do a search for threads on failed poly bushings. There's more than a few, and most if not all of them had improper clearances. That's the problem with re-using the stock shells with aftermarket bushings, and probably why the proforged poly bushings now come with their own shells.
 
I am just throwing a question out there......what potential problem would a bushing that fits like that cause? In other words, once assembled, the control arm is trapped with no place to go. I kinda like the idea of drilling a hole straight through the shell, bushing and inner shell and screwing a grease fitting into the outer shell. Seems to me a slip fit in the inner shell would take any binding away that might happen with a press fit.

Of course, I could be totally off base. I simply present the idea for discussion.
I was unsure also that why I started the conversation. I honestly don't know what or if it could do anything but it worries me that it don't fit the same way it came apart!
 
I was unsure also that why I started the conversation. I honestly don't know what or if it could do anything but it worries me that it don't fit the same way it came apart!

I totally agree with nuand blu that it's a bad idea. I was just throwin it out there. I have thought of this though........somehow incorporating a high strength tapered bearing or even a heavy duty bronze bushing in that area. Both greaseable, of course. Ford used heavy greaseable duty bronze control arm bushings for years in their police car packages. Something like that would remove all of any binding that might occur. I'm no engineer, so I'll leave it up to somebody else to do. lol

All in all, it's a pretty good design as is, as long as quality parts are used. I mean seriously, the stock Mopar suspension has stood the test of time in just about every single type of racing possible.
 
Yes, the polyurethane bushings use a slip fit. That's a polyurethane to steel interface, and they're designed that way. And honestly, I don't even use stock LCA pins with those, I use greaseable LCA pins. The greaseable LCA pins are a single piece, there's no step down for an inner shell to press on. So with a greaseable LCA pin and the older insert-style poly bushing design you totally eliminate the inner shell. You can use stock LCA pins with poly bushings, but then you need to re-use the original inner shell. And either way, the poly bushings should be TIGHT on the LCA pins. Like those Proforged poly bushings that come with inner and outer shells. Try and push the inner sleeve out of those things. You'll need at least a vise, more likely a press. They don't just slip in and out loosely.

A "slip fit" steel-on-steel joint is a terrible idea. The whole idea is that the LCA pins are a press fit into the inner shell, and the rubber is a friction fit on the inner and outer shells. There's no clearance to create slop, all you get for movement in the pin is from the rubber bushing. If the LCA pin slips in and out of the inner shell, you've got slop. Not to mention a steel on steel joint you can't lubricate. Where exactly are you going to drill though the LCA to go through the shell and put a zerk? The outer shell is surrounded by the torsion bar lever and the load bearing parts of the LCA. If the pin can slide around in the steel inner shell, it will hammer that thing oblong in no time at all out on the street.

As for the LCA itself, it's not "trapped". The torsion bars can slide back and forth a good 1/4" inside the sockets. If your LCA slides back a forth a 1/4", you have serious problems. The strut rods (not the torsion bars) are supposed to hold the LCA's in place. Which is why I use adjustable strut rods when I change over to poly LCA bushings. The length of the strut rod is a lot more critical if you use poly LCA bushings. Partly because the LCA can slide a little, but mostly because there's very little give in the poly bushing. So if the strut rod isn't exactly the right length the LCA will bind. But the strut rods still depend on a tight fit between the LCA and the LCA pin to keep that end aligned.

Like everything else, the stock LCA pins have a tolerance. I measured a bunch of them when I switched over to Delrin LCA bushings because the fit is very important with those. And like most things Mopar, of the 4 sets I measured no 2 sets were identical in diameter. Regardless of the style bushing used, the LCA pin has to be a tight fit. If an OE style rubber bushing is used, it has to be a press fit like it was designed to be. If it's not, you need new LCA pins or a different set of bushings. If the poly insert style bushings are used (the kind sold with no shells), they have to be a tight fit to the re-used outer shells AND a tight fit to either the greaseable pin or the re-used stock pin and inner shell. Yes technically it's a slip fit, but it has to be a tight slip fit. If not, just do a search for threads on failed poly bushings. There's more than a few, and most if not all of them had improper clearances. That's the problem with re-using the stock shells with aftermarket bushings, and probably why the proforged poly bushings now come with their own shells.
Thanks for the reply I appreciate the info. I didn't think that could possibly be right. Reallly sucks cause I already got it pressed in I hope I can get it out without scratching the piss out of my lca I just got them painted lol.
Do you recommend going with the poly or just getting the standard ones?
 
I have 2 spare pins that I haven't removed the center sleeve yet so I wanted to compare that with the new bushings you can clearly see a huge difference in the thickness of the sleeve and that affects the id. I really thought it would be hard to eff up a metal sleeve a shell and a piece of rubber guess I was wrong!! I'm gonna try and get the one I pressed in out and order the proforce ones
 
Here are the pics

20190317_073954.jpg


20190317_073957.jpg
 
Well I got it out but not without ugly upping my lca I'm gonna have to sand it and repaint it! But that Chinese pos is out!!
 
Yes, the polyurethane bushings use a slip fit. That's a polyurethane to steel interface, and they're designed that way. And honestly, I don't even use stock LCA pins with those, I use greaseable LCA pins. The greaseable LCA pins are a single piece, there's no step down for an inner shell to press on. So with a greaseable LCA pin and the older insert-style poly bushing design you totally eliminate the inner shell. You can use stock LCA pins with poly bushings, but then you need to re-use the original inner shell. And either way, the poly bushings should be TIGHT on the LCA pins. Like those Proforged poly bushings that come with inner and outer shells. Try and push the inner sleeve out of those things. You'll need at least a vise, more likely a press. They don't just slip in and out loosely.

A "slip fit" steel-on-steel joint is a terrible idea. The whole idea is that the LCA pins are a press fit into the inner shell, and the rubber is a friction fit on the inner and outer shells. There's no clearance to create slop, all you get for movement in the pin is from the rubber bushing. If the LCA pin slips in and out of the inner shell, you've got slop. Not to mention a steel on steel joint you can't lubricate. Where exactly are you going to drill though the LCA to go through the shell and put a zerk? The outer shell is surrounded by the torsion bar lever and the load bearing parts of the LCA. If the pin can slide around in the steel inner shell, it will hammer that thing oblong in no time at all out on the street.

As for the LCA itself, it's not "trapped". The torsion bars can slide back and forth a good 1/4" inside the sockets. If your LCA slides back a forth a 1/4", you have serious problems. The strut rods (not the torsion bars) are supposed to hold the LCA's in place. Which is why I use adjustable strut rods when I change over to poly LCA bushings. The length of the strut rod is a lot more critical if you use poly LCA bushings. Partly because the LCA can slide a little, but mostly because there's very little give in the poly bushing. So if the strut rod isn't exactly the right length the LCA will bind. But the strut rods still depend on a tight fit between the LCA and the LCA pin to keep that end aligned.

Like everything else, the stock LCA pins have a tolerance. I measured a bunch of them when I switched over to Delrin LCA bushings because the fit is very important with those. And like most things Mopar, of the 4 sets I measured no 2 sets were identical in diameter. Regardless of the style bushing used, the LCA pin has to be a tight fit. If an OE style rubber bushing is used, it has to be a press fit like it was designed to be. If it's not, you need new LCA pins or a different set of bushings. If the poly insert style bushings are used (the kind sold with no shells), they have to be a tight fit to the re-used outer shells AND a tight fit to either the greaseable pin or the re-used stock pin and inner shell. Yes technically it's a slip fit, but it has to be a tight slip fit. If not, just do a search for threads on failed poly bushings. There's more than a few, and most if not all of them had improper clearances. That's the problem with re-using the stock shells with aftermarket bushings, and probably why the proforged poly bushings now come with their own shells.
I couldn't remember exactly who it was I wanted to chime in on this originally, but now I do LOL. thank you...
 
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A "slip fit" steel-on-steel joint is a terrible idea. The whole idea is that the LCA pins are a press fit into the inner shell, and the rubber is a friction fit on the inner and outer shells. There's no clearance to create slop, all you get for movement in the pin is from the rubber bushing.

Totally agree. If the pin is not fixed in position it would defeat the purpose of having a flexible bushing in the first place.
 
So which one should I get now? The proforce poly or the standard?
 
So which one should I get now? The proforce poly or the standard?

It really depends on how you plan to use the car and what your budget is.

I think the poly bushings are great. Reducing the amount of flex at the LCA pin greatly improves the accuracy and feel of the suspension. But, you don’t need that if you’re just building a cruiser. And, I don’t install the poly bushings unless I’m also installing greaseable LCA pins and adjustable strut rods. I mentioned why in my last post, using the poly bushings makes the length of the strut rod more critical, and the stock strut rods don’t usually cut it. Suspension is a system, the parts have to work together. So if you want to upgrade to poly bushings you should upgrade everything they depend on too.

If you want to use the stock LCA pins and strut rods, I would stick with rubber LCA bushings. The last set I bought was Moog, they seemed fine. I’ve never heard of the brand you bought.
 
It really depends on how you plan to use the car and what your budget is.

I think the poly bushings are great. Reducing the amount of flex at the LCA pin greatly improves the accuracy and feel of the suspension. But, you don’t need that if you’re just building a cruiser. And, I don’t install the poly bushings unless I’m also installing greaseable LCA pins and adjustable strut rods. I mentioned why in my last post, using the poly bushings makes the length of the strut rod more critical, and the stock strut rods don’t usually cut it. Suspension is a system, the parts have to work together. So if you want to upgrade to poly bushings you should upgrade everything they depend on too.

If you want to use the stock LCA pins and strut rods, I would stick with rubber LCA bushings. The last set I bought was Moog, they seemed fine. I’ve never heard of the brand you bought.
Ok thanks I will just get the standard ones then because I'm using the original pins and strut bars.

So I was doing some research and I saw that ac delco and moog list the inside diameter of their bushing at .810. So this got me to thinking so when I got home just now I measured my pins they are coming in at .809 and the old bushing sleeve that I took of is coming in at .807-.808. The new ones that I bought are .825 on one end and .806 on the other. (The wrong end)
So even with moog .810 that's too big for a press fit right? I would think I news closer to .808 or smaller maybe .806 for it to truly "press fit" I'm I putting to much thought into this?
The proforge ones dont have a inside diameter listed not that I can find.
 
Just recently did my LCA bushings. I had one that was a tight fit on the pin, until I pressed it in. Then it distorted, and the pin would just slide in/out. Had to put in a new bushing. FWIW, I've seen 2 types of bushings. One looks like the OP's bushing the other style has rubber covering the top of the bushing. I found the OP's style worked by pressing the bushing into the LCA, then putting an 11/16 socket in the back side of the LCA to give the press something to press against, and pressing in the pin in. The ones with the rubber covering, I press the pin in first, and then the assembly into the LCA.
 
Those ProForged ones are available through O'Reilly. I was lookin at them yesterday. I've not seen any feedback on them but I like how they are urethane and still have the outer shell.
 
Ok thanks I will just get the standard ones then because I'm using the original pins and strut bars.

So I was doing some research and I saw that ac delco and moog list the inside diameter of their bushing at .810. So this got me to thinking so when I got home just now I measured my pins they are coming in at .809 and the old bushing sleeve that I took of is coming in at .807-.808. The new ones that I bought are .825 on one end and .806 on the other. (The wrong end)
So even with moog .810 that's too big for a press fit right? I would think I news closer to .808 or smaller maybe .806 for it to truly "press fit" I'm I putting to much thought into this?
The proforge ones dont have a inside diameter listed not that I can find.

Some people don't like the extra "telegraphing" of road vibration urethane bushings can give. I've noticed it on some vehicles and others not so much.
 
Those ProForged ones are available through O'Reilly. I was lookin at them yesterday. I've not seen any feedback on them but I like how they are urethane and still have the outer shell.
I noticed that the proforge and ac delco have two different options fo bushings a standard rubber bushing and a poly version.
 
Here's an XRF OEM rubber style bushing from Michigan Bearing. It looks to be a quality piece. It was a little pricey at $13.47, but I got it with the rest of an order that was very competitively priced. It was dropped shipped from the XRF warehouse near Port Huron.

Definitely an interference fit.

Check out the hologram on the box. A measure to combat Chinese counterfeits? Not something I've seen on parts before. @RustyRatRod, is it common?

DSCN0422.JPG
 
Here's an XRF OEM rubber style bushing from Michigan Bearing. It looks to be a quality piece. It was a little pricey at $13.47, but I got it with the rest of an order that was very competitively priced. It was dropped shipped from the XRF warehouse near Port Huron.

Definitely an interference fit.

Check out the hologram on the box. A measure to combat Chinese counterfeits? Not something I've seen on parts before. @RustyRatRod, is it common?

View attachment 1715306115
I ordered the proforge ones that where recommend by 71hemi. I hope they are better than the ones I have.
 
I got my proforge bushings in the mail yesterday. I checked them out this morning they are most definitely press fitted! They are gonna be tight lol
What the best way to go about it press the pin in the bushing first? Or press the bushing into the lca first?
Or does it even matter?
 
I got my proforge bushings in the mail yesterday. I checked them out this morning they are most definitely press fitted! They are gonna be tight lol
What the best way to go about it press the pin in the bushing first? Or press the bushing into the lca first?
Or does it even matter?
That's probably going to be your personal preference in what method that you choose to use.
I have done it both ways.
I prefer to press the shaft into the bushing first, then press those parts into the LCA.
You will need to press with a long piece of pipe the outer diameter of the bushing shell.
If you decide to press in the bushing first, then the shaft, you need to brace the back end of the shell with a 9/16 deep socket, or similar tool, to keep the bushing shell in place, when pressing.
I think you can use your noggin, and figure everything out.
 
That's probably going to be your personal preference in what method that you choose to use.
I have done it both ways.
I prefer to press the shaft into the bushing first, then press those parts into the LCA.
You will need to press with a long piece of pipe the outer diameter of the bushing shell.
If you decide to press in the bushing first, then the shaft, you need to brace the back end of the shell with a 9/16 deep socket, or similar tool, to keep the bushing shell in place, when pressing.
I think you can use your noggin, and figure everything out.
Thank you friend! I appreciate your help throughout this whole ordeal lol
 
I messed up. I purchased poly set from PST. Great quality. No issues there. The old sleeves were there and looked good. The new bushings were very tight going in. The sleeves are a pain to remove, so I just used the existing ones. Pressed everything in. Looked good. Assembled the lower control arms and installed those. After checking everything I see the bushings are slipping out. Lessons learned. Have everything unbolted and will remove and start all over.
 
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