451 Build For the 67 JC B'Cuda

-

Jesus Chrysler

Forgiving Sins Against Mopar Since 1983
Joined
Feb 5, 2018
Messages
267
Reaction score
214
Location
Ontario, California
Let me start this off by stating that I have never done this before and I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just some guy on the internets reading stuff that some other guy on the internets told me is this or that.

What i would like to do is build a reliable and daily driveable/road trippable 451 stroker motor with a target HP of 550. If what i'm asking is unreasonable, i will default to my opening paragraph.

So far all I've got is a block and the shopping list shown below. What I'd like is for y'all to tell me if I'm off to a good start or wildly off base here.

I have not yet listed a cam as i haven't found what i think i need yet. Some guy on the internets told me that if i want to make power with a tame idle i need a cam that has high lift, short duration & wide lobe separation.

The car is a 67 barracuda 4-speed 3:23/8-3/4. I would like to put a Passon A855 in it but at the very least it will get a passon 4-speed OD treatment.

My list is missing a few other things here and there but i think the meat and taters of it all is there.

So what sayeth ye, oh Some Guys of the Internets?



Shopping List Snip.PNG
 
Last edited:
Does the car currently have a RB in it? If not, plan on adding things to the list..... Motor Mounts for one.

Your list is somewhat in the ballpark of what I did putting a 512 together (I literally started with a block.) Call Dwayne Porter about your camshaft selection.

JW
 
Does the car currently have a RB in it? If not, plan on adding things to the list..... Motor Mounts for one.

Your list is somewhat in the ballpark of what I did putting a 512 together (I literally started with a block.) Call Dwayne Porter about your camshaft selection.

JW

The car currently has a B motor in it. Will the factory B motor mounts not work on my 400 block? I was under the impression that this is all B motor stuff and therefore a direct swap?
 
Looks good from what I can tell. My only comment would be if you stud the heads I don’t know if you had to remove the heads for some reason you can get them off with the engine in the car. Just keep that in mind. Good luck on your build
 
if you stud the heads, you may have header flange interference, just check before you drop the motor it, easier to clearance now than later. my 451 ran like a scalded cat. I blew a clamped muffler off once blipping it. It had a Crane Monster motors cam in it and CNC ported heads all through a little street dominator B intake. it killed in a 65 A, too much!
 
if you stud the heads, you may have header flange interference, just check before you drop the motor it, easier to clearance now than later. my 451 ran like a scalded cat. I blew a clamped muffler off once blipping it. It had a Crane Monster motors cam in it and CNC ported heads all through a little street dominator B intake. it killed in a 65 A, too much!


Pump Gas motor and not too crazy on the power expectation..... Ditch the Studs and get some nice Heads Bolts. It will do everything right for this one.....

JW
 
Purchase Andy F.'s book . It's the best I've seen on the subject . IMO a 451 low deck is the best combo out there . Low decks fit in A-bodies better than RB motors .
 
Generally looks good, the heads are excellent, should make the goal, obviously contingent on cam.

I'd also budget more for machine work, get a good oil pump and use aluminum vice steel main caps, which would allow skipping the girdle and associated machine and assembly work, which isn't all that great, but it's probably $400-500, depending on charges to fly-mill the pan rails. I admire the belt and suspenders approach, but I think it's not required in this case. Obviously, depending on your planned use. S/F....Ken M
 
Let me start this off by stating that I have never done this before and I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just some guy on the internets reading stuff that some other guy on the internets told me is this or that.

What i would like to do is build a reliable and daily driveable/road trippable 451 stroker motor with a target HP of 550. If what i'm asking is unreasonable, i will default to my opening paragraph.

So far all I've got is a block and the shopping list shown below. What I'd like is for y'all to tell me if I'm off to a good start or wildly off base here.

I have not yet listed a cam as i haven't found what i think i need yet. Some guy on the internets told me that if i want to make power with a tame idle i need a cam that has high lift, short duration & wide lobe separation.

The car is a 67 barracuda 4-speed 3:23/8-3/4. I would like to put a Passon A855 in it but at the very least it will get a passon 4-speed OD treatment.

My list is missing a few other things here and there but i think the meat and taters of it all is there.

So what sayeth ye, oh Some Guys of the Internets?



View attachment 1715161991

Good approach for a beginner, so congrats on that. Making a list and keeping track of things is the way to learn. Personally I'd scratch a few things from the list. You do not need a girdle and you shouldn't need the steel caps. I'd skip the head studs also. I would not buy the FiTech, take the money I just saved you from the girdle and caps and use it to step up to a good Holley system such as the Super Sniper or a Terminator kit. You'll thank me later. I'd also build a 470 rather than a 451 as long as the compression ratio is ok.

Buy my book and read it a few times then take the drive to Indio and talk to Brian at IMM. He can build you a very nice 451 using the 240 heads. It will easily make 550 to 600 hp with a Performer RPM intake (or Trick Flow intake) and the Super Sniper kit. You'll have a ton of power and if you get the EFI tuned correctly you'll be able to drive it anywhere with good fuel economy.
 
I should also point out that a lot of stuff on your list can be purchased used at swap meets or on line. I have a Performer RPM that is for sale as well as water pump and water pump housing. Shoot me a PM with a list of what you need and I can probably sell you a bunch of stuff at 50% savings from list price. I have a ton of stuff sitting at a swap meet today as a matter of fact..........
 
$10G's could buy alot of assembled motor...Go for what you can afford.
 
$10G's could buy alot of assembled motor...Go for what you can afford.

True, but it is really hard to know if an assembled engine is any good. I tried to sell my low deck 470 with TF 270 heads for $12K and didn't get a single offer on it. And that is an engine that has been dynoed at over 700 hp and has been featured in multiple magazine articles. I have videos of that engine making 700 hp and nobody wanted it for $12K. So if I can't sell a complete engine then good luck to other folks trying to sell engines.

For the OP - have you read the various TF 240 articles that I've written? You can find them all on my website: Tech Articles | AR Engineering
 
True, but it is really hard to know if an assembled engine is any good. I tried to sell my low deck 470 with TF 270 heads for $12K and didn't get a single offer on it. And that is an engine that has been dynoed at over 700 hp and has been featured in multiple magazine articles. I have videos of that engine making 700 hp and nobody wanted it for $12K. So if I can't sell a complete engine then good luck to other folks trying to sell engines.

For the OP - have you read the various TF 240 articles that I've written? You can find them all on my website: Tech Articles | AR Engineering[/QU. hey Andy still trying to sell the 470 ? I never saw it for sale is it a street or race ? 470
 
good to know. Carbed motors seem to be stepping aside for the EFI guys.
 
Generally looks good, the heads are excellent, should make the goal, obviously contingent on cam.

I'd also budget more for machine work, get a good oil pump and use aluminum vice steel main caps, which would allow skipping the girdle and associated machine and assembly work, which isn't all that great, but it's probably $400-500, depending on charges to fly-mill the pan rails. I admire the belt and suspenders approach, but I think it's not required in this case. Obviously, depending on your planned use. S/F....Ken M

I'm not sure if there is a typo in there or if my Ugoogalizer is malfunctioning, but I have no idea what you're talking about. Can you please elaborate?

Purchase Andy F.'s book . It's the best I've seen on the subject . IMO a 451 low deck is the best combo out there . Low decks fit in A-bodies better than RB motors .

I did that last night, thank you. I should have it by Monday.



Good approach for a beginner, so congrats on that. Making a list and keeping track of things is the way to learn. Personally I'd scratch a few things from the list. You do not need a girdle and you shouldn't need the steel caps. I'd skip the head studs also. I would not buy the FiTech, take the money I just saved you from the girdle and caps and use it to step up to a good Holley system such as the Super Sniper or a Terminator kit. You'll thank me later. I'd also build a 470 rather than a 451 as long as the compression ratio is ok.

Buy my book and read it a few times then take the drive to Indio and talk to Brian at IMM. He can build you a very nice 451 using the 240 heads. It will easily make 550 to 600 hp with a Performer RPM intake (or Trick Flow intake) and the Super Sniper kit. You'll have a ton of power and if you get the EFI tuned correctly you'll be able to drive it anywhere with good fuel economy.

I appreciate your input, thank you. What is your reasoning for going the 470 route over the 451? I originally thought i was going to go 500, but i read enough hoopla about rod ratios, special piston rings and funny noises to scare me away from that route. My thinking was, if I'm going for mild manners I should start with the most displacement possible.

I should also point out that a lot of stuff on your list can be purchased used at swap meets or on line. I have a Performer RPM that is for sale as well as water pump and water pump housing. Shoot me a PM with a list of what you need and I can probably sell you a bunch of stuff at 50% savings from list price. I have a ton of stuff sitting at a swap meet today as a matter of fact..........

I will definitely entertain the idea of purchasing some stuff used.

For the OP - have you read the various TF 240 articles that I've written? You can find them all on my website: Tech Articles | AR Engineering

I will dig into these, thank you for the link.
 
A 470 doesn't have any rod ratio issues and it doesn't require a super short piston. There is plenty of room for a good ring pack and all of the parts are off the shelf. 440 Source usually has a 470 package or you can buy the crank and rods from Molnar and then get pistons from various places. The piston is a very important part of the build. You need to have close to zero deck for the quench, but you'll need some dish volume in order to run on pump gas. There might not be a stock piston that solves the equation for you but custom pistons don't have to cost a bunch. Diamond will do one custom feature on a piston for just a slight charge.

I don't think you need a roller cam to do what you want. A fairly mild solid flat tappet cam will give you 550 hp with a pump gas 470 engine. Take a look at my old 466 engine that I built with Edelbrock RPM heads (unported) and cast iron HP exhaust manifolds. I used a Mopar 0.528 solid flat tappet cam in that engine and it made right around 550 hp on the dyno. In my '65 Coronet it made 475 hp at the rear wheels. That was with a Performer RPM intake manifold and a 800 cfm Edelbrock carb. That would be a very eash combo to replicate and it wouldn't cost much. The Trick Flow heads are better than the Edelbrock heads so you'll have a better engine than what I had. I wouldn't be afraid to run the MP .528 in an engine like you are describing or I might go with a new cam design from Hughes or Comp. Using a flat tappet cam will save you at least $500 if not more. You won't need the expensive lifters or the cam button. The valve springs will also cost less and you can get buy with a less expensive pushrod.
 
I'm not sure if there is a typo in there or if my Ugoogalizer is malfunctioning, but I have no idea what you're talking about. Can you please elaborate?

Use these: 7075 T6 Billet Aluminum Main Caps - Set of 5-440 Source

Not these: Billet Steel Main Caps - Set of 5-440 Source

Or even better: BCR CNC MACHINED MAIN CAPS - MOPAR

Here's the dynamic, aluminum absorbs vibrations, because it's softer than steel or iron. Vibrations are bad, they lead to fretting and other issues. Magnesium would be even better. Not a huge deal if you already have parts. S/F....Ken M
 
If the OP buys a block that has the original main caps on it then there is no reason to spend time and money swapping caps. Assuming he is working on a budget that is one place he can save money. He can cut at least $1000 off of his list by ditching the girdle and aftermarket caps and switching to a flat tappet cam. He'll still be able to make 550 to 600 hp without any trouble.
 
That cam would work okay in a 470 or a 512, might be one size too big in a 451 if you are going to be driving on the freeway a lot. Your RPM on the freeway would be less than 2500 rpm so the engine won't be very efficient with that cam in it.

Did you buy parts for the engine yet? If you haven't purchased the parts then you should build either a 470 or a 512. The cost will be the same but you'll get more torque with the bigger engine.
 
That cam would work okay in a 470 or a 512, might be one size too big in a 451 if you are going to be driving on the freeway a lot. Your RPM on the freeway would be less than 2500 rpm so the engine won't be very efficient with that cam in it.

Did you buy parts for the engine yet? If you haven't purchased the parts then you should build either a 470 or a 512. The cost will be the same but you'll get more torque with the bigger engine.

Hi Andy,

I only have a virgin block with original main caps and at this point and I do intend to build a 470. I currently have 3:23 gears and will be running a 25" tall tire with a hemi OD 4 speed. According to the RMS website calculator I should be doing 2400 RPM at 70MPH.

I would still like to hit a target of 550-600HP, but I'm not sure how that is going to be when it comes to highway cruising. I'd rather not go larger cubes, mostly because of the great things i've read about the reliability of the 470 combo.

EDIT: Correction, i had something wrong on the calculator. With 3:23 gears, 25" tire & a .80 OD, 70MPH is 2000 RPM. I don't think thats going to work in this scenario, it looks like I'd have to change the rear end gear to a 3.90 to get in the 2400RPM range for highway cruising.
 
Last edited:
If you are going to do a lot of freeway driving then I'd suggest going one size smaller on the cam. The cam you picked is a great street/strip type of cam and it would make 600 hp at 6500 rpm with the Trick Flow 240 heads in a pump gas engine with headers and a big carb. But, it isn't going to be happy going up a long hill at 2000 rpm in overdrive. If you put a 5 speed in the car then you have more options but that is an expensive change. The easy thing to do is to just give up a little bit of top end power and go one size smaller with the cam. Then you'll be happy around town and on the freeway and you'll still be plenty fast at the drag strip.
 
Andy,

What are your thoughts on this ground from Hughes? Their tech support says it should hit 600HP in a 470 with TF heads and manifold and the operating range is 2000-6000, which should satisfy my highway cruising needs.

Hughes Engines
 
-
Back
Top