What EDM lifters do you like?

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That's the common thought on that BUT I read a few months ago of how a very reputable dirt modified engine builder sez he really sees very little performance differences between a flat tappet vs. roller in his engine builds.

I was surprised, too.

This guy builds $30,000 SBC motors.

Not hard to believe but extremely hard to sell. J.Rob
 
I'd think that the flat tappet would have to be a mushroom lifter or similar to be comparable in power to a roller.

The .904 lifter was supposed to be a big advantage on the AMC/SBC.
 
It probably depends on how you are using each type. I run a stock casting where I think the port stalls under .600 lift. That and other constraints pushes me to want to snap the valve open to a usable lift as quick as possible. A roller is better at that. A roller can be better if you are limited in total lift. Either by rule or architecture. It is probably where I can gain the most with my combo, but it will have to wait.
 
Not hard to believe but extremely hard to sell. J.Rob
True!
That's the common thought on that BUT I read a few months ago of how a very reputable dirt modified engine builder sez he really sees very little performance differences between a flat tappet vs. roller in his engine builds.

I was surprised, too.

This guy builds $30,000 SBC motors.
It hard to believe. This stems mostly from not having enough engine or head in an extreme build to see what could be.
a small wheel/ small base circle roller cannot match a FT- physically impossible
Flat flank on the roller and all that
now one of Mike Jones Inverse radius profiles...
To the Krooser & the OP on wyrms comment....
True, but as the bar is raised on a .904 & larger tappet, the spread disappears a lot. It’s small with lesser lifter diameters when the cams are small and limited and the builds mild. And yes, IMO that applies to a 30K engine because it is not a all out hold nothing back drag build. Not disrespecting the builder, that’s just simply where it’s at.

A solid cam cam and will do the job super well if the grind is correct. Rollers are called the ultimate for a reason but few ever get close to what they can do.
I was concerned about the holes getting plugged, but have had them for 7 years. Have had them out of the motor about 3-4 times since. Check each one and they were clear. I don’t remember who made them, but I would go EDM again in the future.
Small holes under to much pressure to get clogged IMO.
 
Since I am an engineer for Crower I can say that or lifter are tested via a spin-tron and the dyno every month. We use high zinc and oil with very low zinc. I can tell you with 100% certainty that the EDM lifter will last longer under all conditions than lifter without an EDM hole. Plus it helps when using really fast cam lobes on the street as it acts like a cushion of oil.
 
What I said about street
Krooser can get away without edm with his race car as he never lets it idle slow and is real careful about break in
but if he were to up the cam lift rate and need bigger springs sooner or later he would fine edm helpful
on the roller vs flat tappet
take a look at the comp cam cam lobe catalog
you can see that the Chevy hr's are quicker than the chevy Hyd and the solids similar
go to the Mopar the 904s match the HRs and some mopar solids are quicker than rollers
Back in the day we ran hardfaced overlay or slot filled with nichrome etc with chilled iron lifters and these grinds were identical with the rollers of the day
as spring pressure goes up so does maintenance with either lifter- there are tradeoffs
The inverse radius allows a more gentle off the seat and especially on the close than a similar flat flank roller vs earlier/ quicker off the seat - you can tweak either way or somewhere in the middle there are also tradeoffs on lifter side pressure angles
 
Here is a side by side of solid lifter flat tappet and a solid roller. The first pic is the solid and the second pic is for roller. The Blue is when it opens, degrees at at different lifts and the red is how fast or the velocity of the ramp, open and closing. Ask questions.

cam1_LI.jpg


cam2_LI.jpg
 
whose list? :)
on the above look at the grind with the 1.2 ish base circle
.005 is the same 319 050 same at 254
100 about the same, can't read the other headings
real close

666 did the devil make you do it :)
 
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whose list?
on the above look at the grind with the 1.2 ish base circle
.005 is the same 319 050 same at 254
100 about the same, can't read the other headings
real close

666 did the devil make you do it :)

This is Old Crower masters, since I design these masters for a living I have access to ALOT of info.

The first race car was a 1966 dart and when I went to got my first email I had to add another 6.
 
I have a similar very old 80's Crower list
something else for the gang to chew on
check out the 1" base circle masters below and above
note either the greater seat duration or accelerations to get the same upper numbers
I've run under .900 base circle on 4 1/4 stroke chevies- lots of fun trying to get performance and make it live (stock rockers back in the day)
for those looking Mopar has base circle closer to BBC than SBC
as with flat tappets SBC roller masters leave a lot on the table in a MOPAR
(end rant)
 
I have a similar very old 80's Crower list
something else for the gang to chew on
check out the 1" base circle masters below and above
note either the greater seat duration or accelerations to get the same upper numbers
I've run under .900 base circle on 4 1/4 stroke chevies- lots of fun trying to get performance and make it live (stock rockers back in the day)
for those looking Mopar has base circle closer to BBC than SBC
as with flat tappets SBC roller masters leave a lot on the table in a MOPAR
(end rant)

I agree 100% That is why I picked those to show how a mopar style flat tappet master, with a mopar base circle with be about the same performance wise when on the dyno. Running them back to back "roller vs flat tappet, in mopar land, for the average guy/engine" You will get very little performance gain. How ever when looking at the masters used for my small block mopar solid roller cam the velocity of those master are in the 1000 range. Its a drag race engine so little street driving only to the local cruise. That engine has 1.6 rockers and with those masters the valve velocity is through the roof. Below is a cam card if you want to take a look. The cam card is the "When everything happens" What you cant see is how fast. Oh one more thing the advertised duration on this cam card is a lie by alot ha ha ha ha.

Camshafts | Connecting Rods | Roller Lifters | Rockers | Crankshafts | Pushrods | Clutches
 
Just doing some research and Isky, Crower and Cam Motion all use Johnson Lifters (not Hylift Johnson).

I would imagine everyone else uses Hylift Johnson flat tappet lifters... Morel only makes rollers. And I believe Delphi has stopped producing lifters.

These are all US manufactured... all bets are off if imported.
 
The Johnson catalog shows pictures of all the lifters and shows where the lube flat is on the 229 V6 chev lifter
There is a good reason that Crower and Isky and a very few other vendors use these top quality lifters
One vendor makes all the aftermarket HR upgade lifters AFIK

on that cam list
compare the two with 1.000 inch base circles (above and below the 1.200)
which is going to need a lot more spring? where would you use either (if you had a chevy)
which might be better with a heavy valvetrain,
which might idle just a little bit better :)
 
Wish I could find the article...

Simply put he said he found little to no difference in power between the two.

Usable? Dyno? Don't know the answer.

Dirt track stuff is what I do... Only for myself using trusted machine shops.
wish there were more mopar dirt track enthusiast on here, well anywhere on the net for that matter!
 
wish there were more mopar dirt track enthusiast on here, well anywhere on the net for that matter!

Believe it or not I design lots of circle track cams for small mopars. They have a major advantage over small chevy engines, so most get slapped with a huge weight restriction when they start winning.
 
Believe it or not I design lots of circle track cams for small mopars. They have a major advantage over small chevy engines, so most get slapped with a huge weight restriction when they start winning.

Way to ******* handicap the free market. That is the same level of stupid as saying ACME catapults are too good at catching the Roadrunner, so we're going to tax them so high that Wyle E. Coyote can only afford the shitty Chinesium knockoff ACNE catapults. (I hate that smartass bird)

If your product is non-competitive, why make a better version (where the consumer is the true winner) when you can just legislate your competition into non-competitive status?
 
Way to ******* handicap the free market. That is the same level of stupid as saying ACME catapults are too good at catching the Roadrunner, so we're going to tax them so high that Wyle E. Coyote can only afford the shitty Chinesium knockoff ACNE catapults. (I hate that smartass bird)

If your product is non-competitive, why make a better version (where the consumer is the true winner) when you can just legislate your competition into non-competitive status?

I agree, This last cam I designed and made masters just for his engine runs so good that he has to lose a few races just so he does not get that weight penalty. This is the complaint that is given for the "mopar LA unfair advantage", 18 degree heads, shaft mount rockers, and 0.904" lifters. This class is the one where the have to run the engine quest heads that are unported or touched. That mopar engine will make on average 20hp more, some good engine builders have seen 40+ more. Since I cant kiss and tell the name of the company that builds these, lets just say that he was a Chevy fan.
 
When I spill the laundry list of benefits of the Mopar to my sbc buddies their eyes glass over...
 
Way to ******* handicap the free market. That is the same level of stupid as saying ACME catapults are too good at catching the Roadrunner, so we're going to tax them so high that Wyle E. Coyote can only afford the shitty Chinesium knockoff ACNE catapults. (I hate that smartass bird)

If your product is non-competitive, why make a better version (where the consumer is the true winner) when you can just legislate your competition into non-competitive status?
I think it's hilarious when I read some track rules that ban the Mopar "WZ" head...
 
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