deciphering my new 65 Barracuda

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brodphish

brodphish

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Last September I picked up a 65 Barracuda and I'm trying to figure out exactly what I have. The car is in nice condition and appears very original but who really knows on a 50 year old vehicle. The price was right no matter what, my desire for info is for curiosity not value.

The fender tag shows a build date of 9-30. Would this be one of the last 65's produced? The car was assembled in the L A plant per the tag. It has clearly been off the car and painted red. It seems original based on the build info. The date stamped on the block reads 10 8 65. Does it make sense the block would be cast after the coded assembly date? That seems illogical but I've seen enough references to Ma Mopar build practices to make it a question. The heads are stamped P (B?) 273 *** 10-11 which I believe means an assembly date of 10-11 (65?) It sure looks like a P but the lower haves of the P(B?) 273 are very faint. The *** is illegible and the 10-11 is clear as a bell. That would seem to tie in with the casting date on the engine (it's a 273 Commando).

The car is clearly not a Formula S car, but you could get the Commando as an option in a non-S car, correct? The engine has been out of the car, the block is painted blue and I know all Commandos were red from the factory. It's a 4 speed car which ties out with the fender tag.

And solid info or comments on this would be appreciated. Also any ideas on things to check for more detail would be helpful.

After buying the car mid-Sept. it got cold in early, in Oct. here in Northeast WI. Usually it's nice enough through November. Then the winter toys come out. But I'm looking forward to spring!


Fender tag.jpg

Engine.jpg
Car.jpg
 
Built on 9-30-1964

They would have switched to building 1966 models by 9-30-1965

Chances are the engine is a replacement from a 1966 car.
 
The front driver side of the engine block should have a letter and number stamping such as: A 273 10 1. This example indicates a 1965 model year car (letter A) 273 engine assembled on Oct 1 (1964 for 65 model year). A 1966 model year car would have the a "B" stamped on the engine block. What are the block stampings?
Your car was assembled September 30, 1964 as a 65 model year car with a 273 engine and 2 barrel carb (# 30 on fender tag)
 
Couple flags:

Why is the fender tag a different color?

CC1 is light blue...

Looks like the bottom row is offset.

I'm more familiar with 66 tags, but is that normal?

I'll agree that you could basically option all the form S parts onto a non-form S car.
 
brodphish said:
Last September I picked up a 65 Barracuda and I'm trying to figure out exactly what I have. The car is in nice condition and appears very original but who really knows on a 50 year old vehicle. The price was right no matter what, my desire for info is for curiosity not value.

The fender tag shows a build date of 9-30. That is 9/30/1964
Would this be one of the last 65's produced? One of the earlier cars produced. The year end cut off date was around July 15 and the first days of production were around August 1
The car was assembled in the L A plant per the tag. The fender tag won't tell but the VIN tag will. With the information you provided, your vin should read 1855xxxxxx with the 4th. number being 5= LA plant.
It has clearly been off the car and painted red. It seems original based on the build info. The date stamped on the block reads 10 8 65. Does it make sense the block would be cast after the coded assembly date? Remember the SO date on the tag is the Scheduled Production Date and not the build date. The car could be scheduled to be built but not assembled until later due to parts delays, plant maintenance issues or the like.
That seems illogical but I've seen enough references to Ma Mopar build practices to make it a question. The heads are stamped P (B?) 273 *** 10-11 which I believe means an assembly date of 10-11 (65?) It sure looks like a P but the lower haves of the P(B?) 273 are very faint. The *** is illegible and the 10-11 is clear as a bell. That would seem to tie in with the casting date on the engine (it's a 273 Commando). All the information on the block could be correct. But the engine date is definitely late 65 which is a 66 engine. Information from the LA plant was sketchy at best. They rarely included build sheets in the cars and it's possible yours was scheduled but not built until later because of a parts delay. The engine is definitely a 66.
(it's a 273 Commando) Sorry but no. If your engine was originally a Commando the AB code would be 31 instead
The car is clearly not a Formula S car, but you could get the Commando as an option in a non-S car, correct?Correct, you could order a Commando if the car wasn't a Formula S car. Yours was ordered as a 273 2 barrel.
The engine has been out of the car, the block is painted blue and I know all Commandos were red from the factory. It's a 4 speed car which ties out with the fender tag. Yes, your engine has been repainted and they were originally red. Yes the 4 speed is correct as per the D3 code on the fender tag.

Reading fender tags begins in the lower left and continues to the upper right.

(bottom row)
SO=Scheduled Production Date=9-30=Sept.30-1964
NUMBER=scheduled production number=0193
BDY=Body type=V89=Plymouth Barracuda
TRM=Trim=P4B=P-Premium bucket seats 4-Vinyl B-Blue
PNT=CC1 D C=Light blue roof C=Light blue roof 1=Monotone paint style
D=Medium blue metallic upper door frame

(second row)
AB=Engine=273-2
D=Transmission=3=4 speed manual floor shift
F=Heater=5=Heater with defroster
V=Back up lights=3=back up lights

(top row)
1=Mirrors=1=Outside left manual
3=Electrical items=9=3 speed variable wiper/washer

I hope this clears up your questions. tmm

And solid info or comments on this would be appreciated. Also any ideas on things to check for more detail would be helpful.

After buying the car mid-Sept. it got cold in early, in Oct. here in Northeast WI. Usually it's nice enough through November. Then the winter toys come out. But I'm looking forward to spring!


View attachment 1715285065
View attachment 1715285082 View attachment 1715285084
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YY1 said:
Couple flags:

Why is the fender tag a different color?

CC1 is light blue...

Looks like the bottom row is offset.

I'm more familiar with 66 tags, but is that normal?

I'll agree that you could basically option all the form S parts onto a non-form S car.
Click to expand...

Fender tag color: My guess is previous owner painted it red..why? who knows. More important question is: Is this the fender tag for your car? Check for numbers 930 and sequence code numbers and factory code stamped top of the radiator cross support. Unless the support has been changed, those numbers should be stamped there. If you have the build sheet, use it for cross reference.
It is not unusual to find stamping errors on fender tags. For yours, the row containing the letters "BDY PNT" etc..is offset. Bottom numbers are correctly placed, thus the misalignment.
If your car had been ordered with the Performance Package (273 hp, HD brakes, torsion bars, rear springs, shocks, sway bar and power brakes) then the number "5" would be stamped under the letter "C" in the A - Z letter line.
 
rad support stamp is under your right hand if your looking at the motor with your hands on the support. your car could have been the 193 off the line that day or the 193rd order form that was filled out. conflicting reports on that. A,B,C usually is 64, 65, 66 years.
 
273 Commando would have the large cutout on Drivers Side for the high performance exhaust system.
Black Commando Rear.jpg
 
Thanks to everyone who took the time to read and respond. The knowledge and helpfulness of FABO members is amazing. So many great points are raised, I'll try to hit them all and then provide a conclusion.

Pishta the car has a Be Cool radiator so the support is gone. No info there but gotta say love the avatar.

Pbiggs I don't think I have the build sheet, but I do have the owner's manual in the glove box along with some other original paperwork. I need to go through it again and will soon, pretty sure no build sheet though. Haven't looked under the seat or carpet though, is that where the build sheet would be found if there? Regarding the driver's side block stampings I need to get under the car soon and take a look. I had a nice mirror when I found the 10 8 65 casting on the passenger side, but I dropped the mirror on the K member rail. Of course. Still there.

Hyperpak there is no cut out on the rear valence so I know it was not a Formula S car when I bought it. I wasn't sure if the non-S Commando cars had the single exhaust and cut out or not. This car has a nice aftermarket true dual (2.5?) with good looking headers of unknown make. Sounds great.

YY1 the car is light blue with a light blue interior, headliner, etc. so that ties out with the fender tag. The options and other info on the tag tie out except for the 30 2bbl code this car has the Commando motor (with MSD ignition and Offy intake) Why the tag is painted red who knows but it was clearly done recently.

Toolman - thanks a bunch for the deciphering. It ties out with much of what I thought but I'm a total newbie to deciphering and you filled in the blanks. The VIN 1855 so it's an L A built car. Yes the code is 2 barrel code but this car definitely has the solid lifter motor. You can hear the mechanicals. Also I had it at the speed shop for a minor unrelated issue and they told me one of the valves needs adjustment the next time I was in. This is prolly the least reliable indicator but it's got the nasty snarl of a high compression motor.

Conclusion: right now I believe the car is very original in many respects. Very clean undercarriage, clean and original looking interior. The fender tag matches the car with the exception of the motor code. It's obviously been repainted (original color) and the seats have a light blue cloth face. I believe vinyl was the only way they came from the factory. It seems to have a date code correct replacement motor (10 8 65 clock casting, 10 -11 (65?) head stamping). MSD, headers & exhaust, Offy intake and Quadrajet carb.

The car came from West Virginia and the prior owner had it a long time. My guess is the car was in the CA, NV, AZ or similar area until these cars attained some sort of collector status. It's not been given a full restoration and it's simply too clean of a time machine to have been kept anywhere else while being used regularly.

I did not have time to even give it a thorough cleaning before I put it away for the year, the cold came quick and stayed last year in NE Wisconsin.

New questions:

Does anyone know what the "D" means on the fender tag after the paint code?

How can I find and decipher the rear end codes?

Vinyl was the only factory upholstery, correct?

Thanks again everyone for really adding to the enjoyment of this car. When I get the driver's side block castings and go through my original paperwork again I will post updates.
 
brodphish said:
Thanks to everyone who took the time to read and respond. The knowledge and helpfulness of FABO members is amazing. So many great points are raised, I'll try to hit them all and then provide a conclusion.

Pishta the car has a Be Cool radiator so the support is gone. No info there but gotta say love the avatar.

Pbiggs I don't think I have the build sheet, but I do have the owner's manual in the glove box along with some other original paperwork. I need to go through it again and will soon, pretty sure no build sheet though. Haven't looked under the seat or carpet though, is that where the build sheet would be found if there? Regarding the driver's side block stampings I need to get under the car soon and take a look. I had a nice mirror when I found the 10 8 65 casting on the passenger side, but I dropped the mirror on the K member rail. Of course. Still there. You don't need to get under the car to see this stamping. Standing in front facing the car, the stamping is found on a smooth machined surface on the driver side front of the block just beneath the head.

Hyperpak there is no cut out on the rear valence so I know it was not a Formula S car when I bought it. I wasn't sure if the non-S Commando cars had the single exhaust and cut out or not. This car has a nice aftermarket true dual (2.5?) with good looking headers of unknown make. Sounds great.

YY1 the car is light blue with a light blue interior, headliner, etc. so that ties out with the fender tag. The options and other info on the tag tie out except for the 30 2bbl code this car has the Commando motor (with MSD ignition and Offy intake) Why the tag is painted red who knows but it was clearly done recently.

Toolman - thanks a bunch for the deciphering. It ties out with much of what I thought but I'm a total newbie to deciphering and you filled in the blanks. The VIN 1855 so it's an L A built car. Yes the code is 2 barrel code but this car definitely has the solid lifter motor. You can hear the mechanicals. Also I had it at the speed shop for a minor unrelated issue and they told me one of the valves needs adjustment the next time I was in. This is prolly the least reliable indicator but it's got the nasty snarl of a high compression motor. All 273 engines had solid lifters in 1964-67.

Conclusion: right now I believe the car is very original in many respects. Very clean undercarriage, clean and original looking interior. The fender tag matches the car with the exception of the motor code. It's obviously been repainted (original color) and the seats have a light blue cloth face. I believe vinyl was the only way they came from the factory. It seems to have a date code correct replacement motor (10 8 65 clock casting, 10 -11 (65?) head stamping). MSD, headers & exhaust, Offy intake and Quadrajet carb.

The car came from West Virginia and the prior owner had it a long time. My guess is the car was in the CA, NV, AZ or similar area until these cars attained some sort of collector status. It's not been given a full restoration and it's simply too clean of a time machine to have been kept anywhere else while being used regularly.

I did not have time to even give it a thorough cleaning before I put it away for the year, the cold came quick and stayed last year in NE Wisconsin.

New questions:

Does anyone know what the "D" means on the fender tag after the paint code? Upper door frame paint color light metallic blue.

How can I find and decipher the rear end codes? Pull the rear apart or build sheet. Likely a 7 1/4" rear either 2:94 or 3:23 ratio.

Vinyl was the only factory upholstery, correct? Correct

Thanks again everyone for really adding to the enjoyment of this car. When I get the driver's side block castings and go through my original paperwork again I will post updates.
Click to expand...
 
Toolman - thanks a bunch for the deciphering. It ties out with much of what I thought but I'm a total newbie to deciphering and you filled in the blanks. The VIN 1855 so it's an L A built car. Yes the code is 2 barrel code but this car definitely has the solid lifter motor. You can hear the mechanicals. Also I had it at the speed shop for a minor unrelated issue and they told me one of the valves needs adjustment the next time I was in. This is prolly the least reliable indicator but it's got the nasty snarl of a high compression motor.

Just remember, all 273's regardless of 2 barrel or 4 barrel had solid lifter cams until 1968. The 68 and 69's got a hydraulic cam and the engine was discontinued in 1969. And yes "D" under paint is a upper door frame color. D is Medium blue metallic. I updated the breakdown in my post above.
 
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This is a 273 2 bbl car, and from all indications, that is a 66 273 engine. There is no way to tell if it's even a commando engine unless you pop one of the heads and look for the domed pistons, as all other mechanical components are identical to 273 2 bbl motors, except the profile of the camshaft, which could be checked with a dial indicator with the intake off.
 
cosgig said:
This is a 273 2 bbl car, and from all indications, that is a 66 273 engine. There is no way to tell if it's even a commando engine unless you pop one of the heads and look for the domed pistons, as all other mechanical components are identical to 273 2 bbl motors, except the profile of the camshaft, which could be checked with a dial indicator with the intake off.
Click to expand...
I would agree. I went back and edited my response about the engine. It appears that the block is for sure a late 65 (66). The date code on the heads are reasonable that they belong with the block. The intake bolt angle and bolt size would tell the story as well as looking up the intake part number just to double check.
 
Looked at the paperwork in the glove box, a correct owner's manual is in there with service records for a different VIN so it must have been found a swap meet or something, and placed with the car. There is a certi-card riveted to the inside of the glove box door but no VIN or other info.

The block stamping pbiggs referred to are B 273 11 19. I believe this matches up with the 10 8 65 block casting as a 66 motor per toolman. Stopped by Harbor Freight and their bore scopes are going on sale next weekend ($60) think I'll get one and look for the domed pistons (or not).

The correct seat coverings from Legendary are $960 front and rear so I think that is on the short list.

I'll post what I find on the pistons in the next couple of weeks.
 
UPDATE ANSWER and NEW MYSTERY - I was able to speak with the prior-long term (15 years) owner of this car. He believes this car lived most it's life on the Arizona / California border. He directed me to a number of car show stickers under the trunk lid, all from border towns. Back in February on this thread I had posted (without having seen the car show stickers) my suspicion was this car spent it's life in AZ or CA. This was due to the incredibly clean undercarriage. Turns out this suspicion is quite likely correct.

He also said he believes it's quite likely this car had the original paint still on it. I was started to believe that as well, incredible as it seems. The paint lays nice and flat, with a nice finish and absolutely no blemishes... but there is a little overspray on the rubber seals in a spot or two, and very small amounts of excess paint in between the metal and chrome in a spot or two. Overall it looks very good but it just has the vibe of a real old-school paint job. Once he told me his suspicion it was original, it clicked with me that's where my suspicion was headed.

The former owner also noted in the few places primer is visible, it is the same dark blue primer everywhere (the car is light blue) . SO THE NEW QUESTION IS: any way to confirm or deny this is the original paint? I know a definitive answer may not be possible but any clues to solidify (or not) this opinion we both hold?

Any input is appreciated!
 
Interesting you bring up dark blue "primer".

I have an original paint 67 Belvedere station wagon.
It is white with a 2 tone blue interior.

The paint is very faded in places and in some, specifically the doors and the tailgate, you can clearly see there is dark blue under the white.

I understand the implications of the blue interior, but why would blue be at least half way down the sides of the doors and tailgate, on the outside?

I repeat, this is an original paint car.
 
Thanks YY11, this is the kind of feedback I was looking for. When former owner told me about the dark blue primer I assumed he knew this is what the factory used. However I did not ask....anybody else?

Also I assume that a little overspray and perhaps a little excess paint was typical of factory pain back in the day. Correct or no?
 
if there's overspray on the rubber or the chrome....

that's questionable

paint comes before rubber or chrome at the factory
 
As for the drive train , remember Chrysler had a 5 year 50,000 mile warranty starting in 1963.

This could explain a date code that is later , also the engine may be marked as rebuilt if covered by warranty.

Gee at 122,000 I still haven’t had to do anything to the drive train on my ‘66 Dart GT that we ordered new back in Oct. 1965 . I guess the warranty made them build a better drive train.
 
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