Alignment - it can't be done?

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matthon

matthon

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Looking for the basics of alignment.
67 Barracuda, factory disc, manual steering, front suspension gone thru, I forget the kit and/or parts used, but definitely from fabo advice.

I was told my car cannot be aligned because the offset washers aren't offset enough.

I'm not buying that, however I want to buy new tires, but before I do that I need to understand alignment basics.

Reading thru various threads, my understanding is these upper bolts and washers, not sure of the name, tie rod ends, and torsion bar adjustment, all play a part in proper alignment.

Am I missing any adjustment?

What are the adjustments that can be made with each?

I don't believe I have any issues that would prevent a proper alignment, but are there any potential problems to be aware of?

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They all effect it. Looks like you have some negative camber going on.

At quick glance your cams are near center and have plenty of adjustment either way. I may find another alignment shop or just do it myself JMO!
 
I didn't use the offset top bushings and I was able to get one of the members here to give the readings you're supposed to look at and I went to the lineup shop and have them do it to the specs that I gave them.
 
This why I do not trust many shops. I can string align most. They do not understand the older cars! When you find a good shop stay in their graces!
 
1969383S said:
This why I do not trust many shops. I can string align most. They do not understand the older cars! When you find a good shop stay in their graces!
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I don't know where you're at a good front end shop should be able to laser align your car a tire in Round Lake by the train station can do it Round Lake Illinois talk to Joey
 
You've been told that probably by someone not even born in the same decade your car was made. Find another alignment shop, OR learn to do it yourself. It's really not difficult.
 
It's starting to come back to me, iirc the replacement camber bolts couldn't be turned any further, although it looks like they can.

Is there a good source for correct camber bolts?

Or do I need to look into offset bushings?
 
Did they even try aligning it? Pictures of all four eccentric washers (cams) would let us know if they actually ran out of adjustment. The picture you provided suggest you have all of the adjustment available. If the eccentric washer (cam) was at 90 degrees different (all of the way in or all of the way out) then you would not have any adjustment left and yes they are the only adjusters on a stock suspension other than the tie rod adjusting sleeves which adjust toe. Maybe they are saying they do not have enough adjustment to achieve the the specifications you provided them.
 
Yes, tried aligning it, it was last year so I don't recall the specifics.

I do recall, now, of course, looking at it on the lift and there was no adjustment left - but I will check all 4 tomorrow and snap pics.

I was reading on a fbbo thread about offset bushings, and how some resort to those when there is no adjustment left, with good results.

I'm not quite understanding how to tell there is no adjustment left, although I think I understood it at one time.

I'll get there, check it tomorrow, take pics, post pics, and find the correct solution.

I need tires, which aren't cheap, and I want to be safe and have full contact on the road.

Thank you all for jarring what's left of my memory.
 
matthon said:
It's starting to come back to me, iirc the replacement camber bolts couldn't be turned any further, although it looks like they can.

Is there a good source for correct camber bolts?

Or do I need to look into offset bushings?
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Maybe but like said I think you need to start with another shop. The one pic you posted of a cam is dead center and full adjustment is there. I like to start with both rear cams pushing the arm all the way in to the inner fender and adjust the front cams to get the camber I look for and then the rear cams if needed. If I past the caster point I like or not obtainable then offset bushing are in need. After that I go for the toe setting.
 
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I can do that.
I'll takes pics to document the starting point as well.

It was foolish to let it go so long, but other stuff on my plate, seems so simple now with good info.
 
Whatever it takes to correct.
I have a few days before an order would even ship, so I'll take a look see and see what I can learn.
 
These A bodies are hard to get enough caster, which is why the offset bushings are made. At home, if all is stock, i do the following.
#1, dial in the maximum amount of caster, this is one adjuster turned all the way one way, and the other all the way the opposite.
#2, you will now have wacked camber, turn one adjuster only untill you have 0 camber. This is when the wheel is perpendicular to the ground, car loaded. I usually do this with bare rims (no tires) supported on blocks (car weight on the wheels and blocks) and a large framing square, on a smooth, level cement floor. You can improvise this quite easily using an electronic level. You now have the maximum camber possible for zero camber.
#3, set the toe in. This can be done with string lines across the wheels (bare wheels again, but you can improvise this as well) extending 8 or 10 feet ahead of the car. Measure the distance between the two strings at the nose of the car, and then at 8 or 10 feet. You want just a little toe in, like 1/4 to 1/2"


It is not very scientific, but it will get you very close and the car will drive great.
 
waay too much neg camber or toe out
you can certainly get it better yourself, Ive done just that in a super flat driveway using a carpenters square, a tape measure and level on multiple cars
as already said, the pic you posted, the cam is dead neutral in the adjustment range. also check your toe in/out, that can cause 'scrubbing' which can mimic the appearance of too much neg camber once the inner treads are shiney. ck ride hieght and that yoru t bars are not unwound too much at the LCA. its not a single adjustment to bring the car into even a close alignment..a good shop will know that at well. my advice reset eveything to stock/neutral and go from there.
 
I always do it close to how Dave up there described. Let me go into a little more detail though. I get the wheels in the air. Loosen the upper control arm bolts. Crank the front bolt so the cam kicks the upper control arm all the way OUT on the front side. Tighten it down. Loosen the rear cam bolt. Position the cam bolt so it pulls the rear of the upper control arm IN as far as it will go. Do this on both sides. Let the car down and back it up and then pull forward to get the tires relaxed. Next, pick a front tire and get it as straight as possible point forward. Put a level on it in the center and vertical. If the level shows positive camber, loosen the rear upper control arm bolt and carefully rotate the cam bolt until the level bubble is level.

If however, the camber is negative, adjust the front cam bolt carefully so the level bubble is level. Repeat for the other side. Finally, set the toe. There are plenty of youtube videos on how to do this. All you need is four jack stands, some string and a tape measure. When you're done, drive the car. Chances are, the caster will be close. If the car doesn't pull, call it good. If it does, determine which way it pulls and try to adjust a little more caster in that side, while also making the camber return to zero. It's a little bit of a puzzle, but once you see what you're doing, the light bulb will go off.
 
Fgill said:
waay too much neg camber or toe out
you can certainly get it better yourself, Ive done just that in a super flat driveway using a carpenters square, a tape measure and level on multiple cars
as already said, the pic you posted, the cam is dead neutral in the adjustment range. also check your toe in/out, that can cause 'scrubbing' which can mimic the appearance of too much neg camber once the inner treads are shiney. ck ride hieght and that yoru t bars are not unwound too much at the LCA. its not a single adjustment to bring the car into even a close alignment..a good shop will know that at well. my advice reset eveything to stock/neutral and go from there.
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Incorrect toe does not mimic camber wear. That tire has camber wear. So many variables here.
 
Bodyperson said:
I added a little to that RRR, Non of this ensures proper caster angles.
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Well sure. With no way to measure, you just have to "guess". But doing it as I outlined in the steps I outlined will probably get you pretty close the first time. Plus, caster is a non wearing tire angle, so there will not be a tire problem with a pull from caster being uneven. Just come back, make some more adjustments and go.
 
RustyRatRod said:
Well sure. With no way to measure, you just have to "guess". But doing it as I outlined in the steps I outlined will probably get you pretty close the first time. Plus, caster is a non wearing tire angle, so there will not be a tire problem with a pull from caster being uneven. Just come back, make some more adjustments and go.
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Yes. All good advise. Though indirectly, caster can contribute to tire wear.
 
Bodyperson said:
Yes. All good advise. Though indirectly, caster can contribute to tire wear.
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Ok, if you say so. I won't argue the point. As I stated, if he aligns it like I described, and it does not pull, he has a successful alignment. As long as it "has enough" caster for road stability, he's good.
 
Bodyperson said:
Incorrect toe does not mimic camber wear. That tire has camber wear. So many variables here.
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mim·ic
/ˈmimik/
verb
1.
imitate
synonyms: imitate, copy, impersonate, do an impression of, take off, do an impersonation of, do, ape, caricature, mock,

I guess you didnt actually read my response.
I stated it appears to have too much neg camber 1st & foremost.
I added to start with square one stock settings ON EVERYTHING..this will eleminate many of the variables involved.
I also said that once the tire tread is gone, toe out can in fact look (to the untrained eye), like too much neg camber.
*See definition of mimic provided above*
In an excessive toe out condition, the inner leading edge of the tread is scrubbing the contact surface of the road as the car travels in a straight line, thus it wears out 1st. tread will appeared "feathered" until its all gone, then its hard to tell the difference. Its also quite possible that all settings are jacked wagoned up..so its not just camber issues here, but caster as well. Last time I checked a proper alignment checks & sets both.
Since we dont have/cannot tell in person what the tread looked like prior to it being totally bald on the inside edge, we cannot know if the car was bump steering, dog legging, pulling to one side, is even level.... and OP doesnt seem to know, its anyones guess as to the actual cause.
The one alignment shop couldnt even tell in person, perhaps thats because they are ignorant to all thats involved in a near 50yr old mopar..or that the car is simply too far out of spec and they dont want to deal with it for a quick $100 alignment job.
I once had a torsion bar unwind on me at the hex end (had hogged out the frame mount somehow) and the car would drastically change alignment simply driving down the road. Took forever to figure it out. One would assume that couldnt possibly ever never happen. but it did.
So... like others here, I was including other possible variables, just as you mentioned so factually, there being.
 
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Camber wear causes an even wedge type wear across the WHOLE tire. Toe does not do this. The tire does exhibit a combination of the two. Especially being a radial tire. You did say "or" say I am cancelling out Toe as being the major wear angle. :)
 
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matthon said:
Looking for the basics of alignment.
67 Barracuda, factory disc, manual steering, front suspension gone thru, I forget the kit and/or parts used, but definitely from fabo advice.
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OP, it is fairly important to know what was replaced. Were all the bushing replaced" Upper control arm, lower control arm, and strut rod? Worn/damaged parts can make it marginal or impossible to achieve alignment. So can you research and get back to everyone one what was replaced? Did the shop say anything about anything still worn? Any known wreck history for this car?

As for the offset bushings in the upper control arms, they are not required to achieve stock alignment specs if everything else is correct.
 
Everything was replaced, including the pitman arm, sway bar end links, upper/lower/strut rod bushings, shocks, except the sway bar bushings. I still have them, just couldn't figure how to r&r.

Pics below are driver front/rear/tire, then pass.

Car had damage to driver side front at some point, front bumper was at a slight angle up when I got it. Driver side tire was wearing out on inside something fierce.

Fast forward, I went to install front suspension parts and the upper frame rails were rotted. Upper control arm mounts were barely attached. Poor design, like a bathtub for dirt, debris, water, etc.

Had a whole thread on it here years ago. Found replacement parts, new upper rails that included the upper control arm mounts and shock mount, nice, well made stuff.

Installed by a well known pro welder, bodyman, not a remove parts replace with parts bodyman. I was there every step, everyday really.
He pulled the inner/outer fenders, front, suspension, everything, and made sure everything was straight and true.
IIRC, he added some pieces of metal to ensure new to old was strong.

Front rails weren't bent, driver side bumper brackets messed up.

Bumper is now straight.

Same tires on car now as before any work was done to rails and suspension.

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I purchased one of these off the web, all of my fears quickly evaporated, it did come with instructions and the web site was more then helpful. the initial cost was 126 dollars and there are cheaper ones out there. I used some hardwood flooring for my wheel plates with a little bit of spray in between them.

As you mention before about the eccentric washers, some kits you buy will not have the bolt shoulder cut properly and will not let you have the correct amount of squeeze to secure the final adjustment and it will move on you.

I like a lot of caster, its nice to let go of the wheel briefly and let the car steer it's self straight from a turn. You may have to buy the elongated bushing to get the effect you desire.

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