Alignment - it can't be done?

-
OK, roger understood on the 'rust catchers' up there. Very true. Since the front was perhaps damaged and the tires were on there before repairs, then the tire wear patterns cannot be used to judge what is going on at this time. What we need from you is what alignment parameter was not achievable and in which direction + or -, and on which side. We cannot guess off of the tire wear as shown after repairs may have changed things.

Looking at your pix, the top pair of pix look to be driver's side, and based on the brake line position, the rear bolt is on the left and front bolt on the right. Please make sure I have that right. If so then the bolts are adjusted for almost as much negative camber as can be had. They are also set for nominally neutral caster, more + or - looks achievable. (They also look to be set in a way that may not make caster stay constant with suspension movement up and down.) A similar thing shows on the passenger side, although the camber is not set as far negative in its adjustment range.

Bottom line, there certainly looks to be some adjustment range left. But, with us not knowing where the adjustment is off, we can't say much more.

And none of us can say if the repairs fully fixed all the mounting points perfectly. That is not to say they are not... just that us on the other side of the internet can't know. BTW, it sure would be wise to put a thin coat of antiseize under the eccentric washers and on the bolts/nuts, including through the bushings. It's gonna keep the adjustability of the suspension in good shape for years to come.
 
First things first, make it right. Have you inspected the LCA holes in the K-frame?
 
I'm no mechanic , but , aren't you supposed to set the ride height FIRST ? I'm no mechanic , but , for radial tires , aren't you supposed to attain the max caster ?
 
I do not have the information on what could not be achieved.
Correct, driver side on top, rear bolt is on the left and front bolt on the right.

Tires on before repairs, but driver side was way worse and started to show wear first.
It was probably due to the rust, the upper control arm mounts were literally hanging by a thread.

I wouldn't claim all the repairs were perfect, but it wasn't hacked together either.

I'll check the LCA holes.

I'll take all your advice, and run with it.
 
383Scampman said:
I'm no mechanic , but , aren't you supposed to set the ride height FIRST ? I'm no mechanic , but , for radial tires , aren't you supposed to attain the max caster ?
Click to expand...
I actually run radial tires on my '62 Dart with caster set at original factory spec. No issues whatsoever with the radials...

I grew driving these cars when new, and learned to steer without having the strong wheel centering action of a lot of + positive caster. Folks have become used to the large + caster and most are uncomfortable without it. Having power steering on everything nowadays makes it a non-issue.

One of the things that makes it feel vague is if the center of steering in the steering box is not found and used for the center. That has nothing to do with the caster but sometimes a large + caster can be used to mask some the sloppiness that results when the center of steering is not centered in the steering box.
 
RustyRatRod said:
I always do it close to how Dave up there described. Let me go into a little more detail though. I get the wheels in the air. Loosen the upper control arm bolts. Crank the front bolt so the cam kicks the upper control arm all the way OUT on the front side. Tighten it down. Loosen the rear cam bolt. Position the cam bolt so it pulls the rear of the upper control arm IN as far as it will go. Do this on both sides. Let the car down and back it up and then pull forward to get the tires relaxed. Next, pick a front tire and get it as straight as possible point forward. Put a level on it in the center and vertical. If the level shows positive camber, loosen the rear upper control arm bolt and carefully rotate the cam bolt until the level bubble is level.

If however, the camber is negative, adjust the front cam bolt carefully so the level bubble is level. Repeat for the other side. Finally, set the toe. There are plenty of youtube videos on how to do this. All you need is four jack stands, some string and a tape measure. When you're done, drive the car. Chances are, the caster will be close. If the car doesn't pull, call it good. If it does, determine which way it pulls and try to adjust a little more caster in that side, while also making the camber return to zero. It's a little bit of a puzzle, but once you see what you're doing, the light bulb will go off.
Click to expand...


Yup... This is great advice on how to make your car totally drive-able on the cheap and very close to proper alignment in most cases. I did my '78 Street van this way a couple of years ago after putting new wheels and tires on it, and it drives so good that I never bothered to take it in to be checked. No signs of uneven wear still....
Now getting ready to do my Barracuda the same in the next week.
 
Ride height throws all specs out. Need someone who knows about this and align it to to what ride height owner desires. 14 to 15 inch wheels radials.
If you want the car pointing to the ground stock specs might work.

Best you can do with mods.
 
Last edited:
383Scampman said:
aren't you supposed to set the ride height FIRST
Click to expand...
Yes. That is the first adjustment to be made.
Then Camber should be adjusted - but you can cheat by doing caster first, then camber, then recheck caster.
Toe last.
Go to a Plymouth or Dodge FSM and its got a good step by step.
383Scampman said:
for radial tires , aren't you supposed to attain the max caster ?
Click to expand...
I wouldn't go that far. A lot of newer tires, and of course competition tires have so much more grip that combined with the change in carcass construction, more negative camber is needed. Adding positive caster in effect adds negative camber to the outside tire during a turn. So a little more negative camber, and little more positive caster is often a good starting point for even a basic performance radial tire of today. (eg a BFG Radial T/A)
Another difference on public roads today is the reduced crown. Paved roads used to have a pretty high crown so the FSM alignment specs took that into consideration.
 
Last edited:
I tried the string and eyeball engineering methods.
Not for me. It only takes a few 1/2 degrees before it is wrong.

I splurged and got 2 and swivel plates since I'm doing multiple cars.

But just get one Fastrax and do it yourself.
I got the toe adapters before someone suggest toe boards.
Which might be better.
If your floor is not prefect and smooth, use a flat piece of metal laying on the floor beside the tire to set Fastrax on it for the camber setting.
Use the famous skosh sheet for radial tire settings.
A shop will use the wrong thing anyway.
Once you get it figured out you are good to go.
Don't rely on a shop.


Fastrax review and alignment questions for the pros.
 
RustyRatRod said:
I always do it close to how Dave up there described. Let me go into a little more detail though. I get the wheels in the air. Loosen the upper control arm bolts. Crank the front bolt so the cam kicks the upper control arm all the way OUT on the front side. Tighten it down. Loosen the rear cam bolt. Position the cam bolt so it pulls the rear of the upper control arm IN as far as it will go. Do this on both sides. Let the car down and back it up and then pull forward to get the tires relaxed. Next, pick a front tire and get it as straight as possible point forward. Put a level on it in the center and vertical. If the level shows positive camber, loosen the rear upper control arm bolt and carefully rotate the cam bolt until the level bubble is level.

If however, the camber is negative, adjust the front cam bolt carefully so the level bubble is level. Repeat for the other side. Finally, set the toe. There are plenty of youtube videos on how to do this. All you need is four jack stands, some string and a tape measure. When you're done, drive the car. Chances are, the caster will be close. If the car doesn't pull, call it good. If it does, determine which way it pulls and try to adjust a little more caster in that side, while also making the camber return to zero. It's a little bit of a puzzle, but once you see what you're doing, the light bulb will go off.
Click to expand...


question on this..ok, if you have positive camber, wouldnt you adjust the front cam bolt instead of the rear? Seems that if you adjusted the rear cam bolt, it would give even more positive camber being you started with the rear bolt all the way in..?
 
mopower440 said:
question on this..ok, if you have positive camber, wouldnt you adjust the front cam bolt instead of the rear? Seems that if you adjusted the rear cam bolt, it would give even more positive camber being you started with the rear bolt all the way in..?
Click to expand...

Yes, my apologies. I got it backwards. The rear cam bolt would not be able to decrease camber, because it would be adjusted all the way in.
 
RustyRatRod said:
Yes, my apologies. I got it backwards. The rear cam bolt would not be able to decrease camber, because it would be adjusted all the way in.
Click to expand...
ok, so, start out with the front cam bolt all the way out, and the rear all the way in. NOW, if we then have too much positive camber, adjust the front cam bolt..is this correct?
 
mopower440 said:
ok, so, start out with the front cam bolt all the way out, and the rear all the way in. NOW, if we then have too much positive camber, adjust the front cam bolt..is this correct?
Click to expand...

Right! Too much negative, adjust the rear.
 
mopower440 said:
ok, so, start out with the front cam bolt all the way out, and the rear all the way in. NOW, if we then have too much positive camber, adjust the front cam bolt..is this correct?
Click to expand...

This should ALWAYS start with negative camber, in my experience. Only once have I got the rear cam all the way out and still had negative camber and then had to adjust the front cam in, but every time I have started with the front cam out and rear in I have had negative camber.
 
Jim Lusk said:
This should ALWAYS start with negative camber, in my experience. Only once have I got the rear cam all the way out and still had negative camber and then had to adjust the front cam in, but every time I have started with the front cam out and rear in I have had negative camber.
Click to expand...

Plus this starts you out with maximum caster.......spindle leaniing backwards, IE the top ball joint is max to the rear of the car
 
67Dart273 said:
Plus this starts you out with maximum caster.......spindle leaniing backwards, IE the top ball joint is max to the rear of the car
Click to expand...

That's the whole point of my technique. Usually if everything is "ok" you can get some caster out of it. Usually. lol
 
Jim Lusk said:
This should ALWAYS start with negative camber, in my experience. Only once have I got the rear cam all the way out and still had negative camber and then had to adjust the front cam in, but every time I have started with the front cam out and rear in I have had negative camber.
Click to expand...


Not with mine, with my rear cam bolt all the way in, and the front all the way out, it has a small amount of Positive camber..(top of the tire leaning out).
 
Don't forget the Moog offset A arm bushings which give you "additional."

1...Ride height
2...Caster/ camber has to be fiddled with simultaneously
3...Last set toe
4..."Really" last, walk the steering wheel back to center by moving the tie rod sleeves, and recheck toe
Jounce suspension as you go to let it settle.
5...And of course road test the thing to see what you F'dU
 
Don't forget to start at the beginning..... verify the steering wheel is centered and locked in place to prevent movement when adjusting.

On ride height, I normally add 1" from the at rest height to simulate the car driving down the road under acceleration.

I find most modern shops cannot / will not align because their computer can only give a green / red zone for the alignment specs of the vehicle entered into their computer.....and our 60s-70s cars are not in their data base.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
-

Back
Top