Issues with pre - 70's 318 in a 73 Duster

-
And you have Jake aka lurkdog setting you up for the early stuff!
Cant go wrong either way, should be done by Monday.
I have all the parts you need if you want to go early. PM me if you’re interested.

Jake

Here's all that you will need if you have all the parts from the 73 small block to swap over:


Timing chain gasket kit with crank seal ($23)...

Fel-Pro Timing Cover Gaskets SFLTCS45284


Piston stop tool ($10)...

Summit Racing® Piston Stops SUM-900189


It will cost you $33 + paint to get it to match correctly... :D

(How's that for an affordable solution????) :popcorn:
 
And you have Jake aka lurkdog setting you up for the early stuff!
Cant go wrong either way, should be done by Monday.

If he goes early stuff on the engine, then he has to swap over the radiator...

I haven't tried to swap over the radiators from early to late... Not sure what issues will come up with the radiator bolting up to the core support and if there will be any issues with the fan shroud and proper alignment with the shroud to fan overlap... The fan should be about half way in the shroud to pull the air through the radiator properly and keep the engine from overheating when stopped and idling...

Plus this will cost more than $33 if he has a 73 engine to scavenge parts off of as I pointed out in post #25 on the last page...
 
And you have Jake aka lurkdog setting you up for the early stuff!
Cant go wrong either way, should be done by Monday.

Not that I have anything against Jake (lurkdog)... I've bought parts off of him and he's a good guy... I would buy from him again and recommend him to others...
 
So here's an interesting twist.... has anyone actually tried putting the newer style water pump on the old style chain cover? Despite the differences, it looks like it would actually work.

From what I can tell, all the brackets mount based on the water pump design. So that would resolve both my issues. Worth a shot? Or am I missing something?

20190512_001554.jpg


20190512_001604.jpg
 
I dont see timing marks on your complete engine? I'm pretty sure the old vs new water pumps will have different depths so that complicates things.
Its trial and error so go for it.
 
So here's an interesting twist.... has anyone actually tried putting the newer style water pump on the old style chain cover? Despite the differences, it looks like it would actually work.

If you put the new water pump on the old style chain cover, the timing marks will be blocked by the lower radiator hose outlet on the water pump.... :mad:

You won't be able to time the engine... :BangHead:

You have to keep the timing chain covers and water pumps for the early and later engines together as a combination... Mixing and matching will block the timing marks...
 
Last edited:
I dont see timing marks on your complete engine? I'm pretty sure the old vs new water pumps will have different depths so that complicates things.
Its trial and error so go for it.

The 67 and 68 SB engines used the bolt on timing tab... With the water pump off, they aren't there...

In 69 they added the timing marks to the timing chain cover housing and eliminated the bolt on timing tab.... But they are still in the same position as the timing tab...
 
Where is the timing pointer on the "gold" motor? I see it on the red one , was it a bolt on to the lower w/pump bolts thingy?
 
Where is the timing pointer on the "gold" motor? I see it on the red one , was it a bolt on to the lower w/pump bolts thingy?

Yes, the timing tabs on the 67 & 68 engines used the two bottom bolts for the water pump to mount... With the water pump off, they are not there...
 
Yes, the timing tabs on the 67 & 68 engines used the two bottom bolts for the water pump to mount... With the water pump off, they are not there...
So in that case, the harmonic balancer would also have the timing mark in the incorrect place too, if there was to be a conversion to use the opposite side w/pump outlet, conversion would need :cover, balancer, w/pump and brackets.
100_2131.JPG
 
So here's an interesting twist.... has anyone actually tried putting the newer style water pump on the old style chain cover? Despite the differences, it looks like it would actually work.

From what I can tell, all the brackets mount based on the water pump design. So that would resolve both my issues. Worth a shot? Or am I missing something?

View attachment 1715334086

View attachment 1715334087

If you put the new water pump on the old style chain cover, the timing marks will be blocked by the lower radiator hose outlet on the water pump.... :mad:

You won't be able to time the engine... :BangHead:

You have to keep the timing chain covers and water pumps for the early and later engines together as a combination... Mixing and matching will block the timing marks...



Ok, here it is:


Here is the early style 64 - 69 location with the timing tab as on the 64 - 68 models:

DSC06736 B.JPG



Here is the 70 and later configuration...

DSC06738 B.JPG



Here they are side by side with the early 64 - 69 location on the right and the 70 and later configuration on the left...

DSC06732 B.JPG



Here is the 70 and later timing chain cover with the 64 - 69 cast iron water pump on it...

DSC06742 B.JPG



Here's a side shot of the 70 and later timing cover with the early 64 - 69 cast iron water pump from the side... The radiator hose outlet blocks the timing marks for the vibration damper...

DSC06753 B.JPG



Here's the early style 64 - 69 timing cover location with the 70 and later aluminum water pump... The timing tab will not seat properly as it interferes with the lower radiator hose outlet....

DSC06740 B.JPG


Here's another angle....

DSC06746 B.JPG



Here I put the timing tab under the water pump to simulate the 69 timing cover with the marks cast in... The vibration damper marks will also be blocked by the lower radiator hose outlet...

DSC06748 B.JPG



If you want to do it right, keep the timing chain covers and water pumps together for the early and late style configurations and make a new mark on the old vibration damper that came on the engine that you are using....
 
Last edited:
So in that case, the harmonic balancer would also have the timing mark in the incorrect place too, if there was to be a conversion to use the opposite side w/pump outlet, conversion would need :cover, balancer, w/pump and brackets. View attachment 1715334133


The way around that is to use the vibration damper for the engine and crank that you are using and put the engine to TDC with a piston dead stop tool, then make your own marks on the vibration damper to match the marks on the timing chain cover...

I prefer to keep the proper vibration damper with the crank that it was originally made for and make a new mark vs swapping vibration dampers on cranks and risk having a vibration problem... That way you are not mixing vibration dampers from forged and cast crankshafts and having a vibration issue... Keep the vibration damper that was made for the crank together with that crank and make a new mark to match the new timing mark location on the timing chain cover... A piston dead stop tool only costs $10 and will enable you to mark the true TDC location on the crank to the timing marks on the timing chain cover... It's easy to scribe and/or paint a mark on the damper with paint or white out...


I covered this on page 1 of this thread, but the post above has pictures to make it easier to see what the issues are...

Post #9:

You will need to replace the timing chain cover and water pump from the 67 318 with the one that came on the 73...

I would keep the 67 vibration damper on the engine, but the timing mark will be off... Just get a piston stop tool and find TDC and make a mark with paint or white out on the vibration damper to match the timing marks on the 73 timing chain cover...

Then you can use the 73 power steering setup and also use the 73 style alternator mounting brackets...

Now the water pump outlet for the lower radiator hose will match up with the one from the 73 and you can use the 73 lower radiator molded hose and stay away from the flex hoses...

Done deal...


Post #21:

Basically, use all the parts from the 73 set-up and just use the 67 vibration damper and make your own mark to match the new mark location on the 73 timing chain cover... It will save you a bunch of headaches... :BangHead:

If you still have the 73 engine and parts, you already have most of what you need and just get the piston stop tool to make a new TDC mark... :D

You will only need the timing chain cover and water pump gasket kit to change it over and then paint it to match... :steering:
 
Last edited:
Is this is a very early 318 LA, not a 318 Poly....?

You can make and put a new timing pointer anywhere that is visible, and make a new mark with the TDC tool; the mark can be just a simple piece of metal. Unless you want all original stuff.....

As said, you can make a long hose... just make sure it is supported well.

And using a late 60's or 70's damper with the old hardened rubber in it is a poor idea IMHO... it will more likely fail and also not damp out the crank's high frequency internal vibrations with hardened, cracked rubber, so the damper should be new or rebuilt if you want the original piece. So it can all be changed if desired.

The major vibrations due to engine imbalance (that we could feel) are not balanced out by the 318 damper to that is not a factor.

BTW, OP, since you have a '67 engine, the crank register hole in the back for the torque converter snout is pretty likely going to be smaller than the '68 and later ones. So that may be another issue if you are going with a later trans/TC.
 
I have a '70 340 in my '68 Cuda and had to adapt things to fit. Here is what I found. You can use the shorter iron water pump on the '70+ timing cover but need the timing tab to have a mark by the vibration dampener. You will have to use an early dampener or remark the newer dampener which has TDC on the driver's side of the timing cover. Use a piston stop to bracket the TDC point and measure between the marks you make when the piston stops. That is TDC. I would use timing tape at this point with 0° between the two marks. You can see the later timing mark on the timing chain cover behind the radiator hose, but just barely. See photo 065627 below.

The more important issue is that the later aluminum water pump is 3/4" longer than the early iron pump. I learned through mistakes and working around issues that you can make it all work, but it requires choosing the right parts, mostly pulleys and alternator drives.

If you use the early water pump (with either T/C cover), use the early pulleys and all should line up. This worked on the 340 in the car now.

I have a second engine that I am building with Edelbrock aluminum heads. This is where it gets interesting. The Edelbrock heads stick out further than the factor iron heads by about 3/4" This necessitates changes to fit the alternator to the engine. One option I did not explore is a smaller alternator. What I wanted is a square back alternator with more output than the stock 35 A or 60A units. The cases are the same width, so it should work.

Wiith an Iron water pump, the outlet is on the driver's side which is really what I want. But you have to use 2 grove pulleys on the crank and W/P and space the alternator out at least 3/4" to clear the E-Brock head. I used a pulley from a later model truck 360. The stock early W/P pulley needs about 3/8" spacing to line up with the crank pulley grove. The alternator needs to be spaced out to line up with the water pump and crank pulleys. A long bolt from a more modern 360 is needed and washer or cut metal spacers can be used. Photo 065711 shows the front of the '68 engine with Edelbrock heads. Photo 065627 shows the spacing of the alternator with washers and spacers on the bolt to bring the alternator away from the head. Photo -65723 shows the alignment of the alternator pulley with the W/P and C/S pulleys. Close, but not perfect yet. Need W/P Pulley spacers to make this right.

This is a mock up before I swap engines. I really want the driver's side W/P inlet to match the radiator bottom outlet. But I I have to use the later aluminum W/P, I will have to either use a long modified bottom hose or get the radiator outlet moved.

I will post the mock up of the long aluminum W/P later when I get that done and photographed.

20200418_065627.jpg


20200418_065711.jpg


20200418_065735.jpg


20200418_065723.jpg
 
that mancini pump linked to on th previous page does not apear to have an anti-cavitation plate
 
-
Back
Top