Drop Spindles - PST vs. Magnum Force vs. Fatman vs. ?

So, if I want to go with 2" drop spindles on my '64 Dart (rather than just lowering via the torsion bar adjusters), which are the way to go?

I've already got 73up disc brakes, but the nose is just too high and the stance is wrong

Magnum Force - $440
PST - $499
Fatman Fabrications - $525

Anybody got any input on which are the best?
Fatman says "We’ve done the work to improve the revised outer tie rod end position, which was necessary for bumpsteer reduction into the weld fixture." The other two don't say anything about this.

The price difference is negligible enough - which are the best?

Thanks!

I know this isn't what you asked, but buy a set of larger diameter torsion bars, lower with the adjusters, and get a proper alignment. You'll save hundreds of dollars and your car will handle better too. Now, onto what you actually asked...

The fatman spindles are actually fabricated, meaning, they're multiple different pieces that are then welded together to form the spindle. Some people do not like that idea at all, although as long as they're designed and welded properly it should work fine. They don't use the stock 73+ lower ball joint (because it has the steering arm attached). The steering arm is a part of the spindle instead of part of the ball joint, which allows them to relocate it. What I don't know is if they relocate it the full 2" to keep the relationship between the "axle" centerline and the tie rod end stock, or if it's another amount. Since the stock geometry has very little bump steer, if the relocation is anything other than 2" the bump steer is still probably increased from stock.

I know the Magnumforce spindles don't address that at all. They use the stock lower ball joint, so the outer tie rod end remains in the same location as the stock spindles. But since the drop spindle moves the centerline of the "axle", that means there's an extra 2" vertically between the axle centerline and the outer tie rod, so you get more bumpsteer than stock. I ran the MF 2" drop spindles on my Challenger for a few years without any really significant issues. But I also got rid of them, lowered the car with the adjusters, and maintained the same ride height while lowering my roll center, improving handling, and returning the bump steer to the stock amounts (very little) in the process.

I haven't used or seen the PST drop spindles in person. They appear to be very similar, if not identical, to the MF spindles. In the pictures on their website they appear to be identical to the MF spindles I had.

But again, if you increase the size of your torsion bars you also reduce the amount of suspension travel that you need to have. So, you can lower the car substantially with the torsion bar adjusters if you increase the size of the torsion bars. That also puts the control arms very close to parallel with the ground, which improves the camber curve on the suspension travel and reduces the roll center of the suspension. Using the drop spindles lowers the car and its CG, but if you lower the car exactly 2" the control arm angles remain the same as stock, so the roll center stays the same too. And the bump steer in increased. If you actually lower your car LESS than the full 2" you get from the drop spindles, you actually RAISE the roll center of the car. Those are all finer points to suspension geometry and handling, and if you're just cruising around on the street most people probably won't notice much of a difference, if any at all. But, that IS what happens.

And since you can get a decent set of 1.03" torsion bars for $200 and lower the car properly, why would you spend $440-$600 for a set of drop spindles? Heck for the same money you could buy a set of 1.03" torsion bars, a great set of front shocks, AND get the car aligned.

Thanks 72BluNblu!

I've actually already gone to the larger torsion bars - didn't know that this would be enough to avoid bottoming out.

I dropped the front end on my '71 Super Bee with the torsion bar adjusters back when I was a dumb kid and, while it looked cool, it wore out tires (didn't get it realigned) which led to a front end slide over a curb in the rain, so I was once-bitten-twice-shy on lowering that way.

Guess I'll reconsider and give it a shot. Thanks!

I bought the magnum units. They are for my 1964 Australian valiant same as dart really.
The lower ball joint arms are longer than the originals on the car. I had been running the later vented disks. The car had been off the road for a long time and prior to pulling it off the road I had no issues. I'm not sure of the longer arms which will push the outer tie rods, out of alignment with the drag link and pitman arm. This should be kept in a straight line from one side yo the other. However I cannot fault the spindles in regards to their appearance. There is a lot of thick chunky metal and they don't look like they would fail in a hurry. I guess time will tell when I get her finished.

I had the Fatman's on my 63 Valiant.Why ? they were given to me from a friend that changed his direction. Did the 73 up discs at the same time.You can't even tell by the photos but it did ride nice. Also at the time I went to the larger .870 T-bars, and a 75 Dart 7 1/4 rear with the big bolt pattern.

64DartGTinAZ said:

Thanks 72BluNblu!

I've actually already gone to the larger torsion bars - didn't know that this would be enough to avoid bottoming out.

I dropped the front end on my '71 Super Bee with the torsion bar adjusters back when I was a dumb kid and, while it looked cool, it wore out tires (didn't get it realigned) which led to a front end slide over a curb in the rain, so I was once-bitten-twice-shy on lowering that way.

Guess I'll reconsider and give it a shot. Thanks!

Click to expand...

Even the 1.03" bars allow for a decent drop. Obviously there are limits, if you drop the car more than you've reduced the necessary travel you'll bottom out. But think about the spring rate change- the stock bars have a wheel rate of ~100 lb/in. The 1.03" bars, although PST doesn't advertise the rate, should have a wheel rate that's close to 220 lb/in, give or take 5 lb/in or so. That means you've more than doubled the wheel rate. And you'll need less than half the travel the stock bars needed. There's only about 4" of travel in the original suspension. So, with a 200 lb force input with the original suspension, you're talking about 2" of travel. On the 1.03" bars, you're talking about less than 1". With a 300 lb input the stock bars are at 3" of travel (and have hit the bump stops because there isn't 3" in one direction), where the 1.03" bars are only at 1.4" of travel. It's a dramatic change.

But you ABSOLUTELY need a re-alignment if you lower the car. The suspension geometry changes as the car is lowered. Camber, caster, and toe all change as the car is lowered. If you really slam the car in the weeds, you may need offset UCA bushings to get the alignment specs back to where they need to be. But you probably don't want to lower that much with the 1.03" bars. My cars sit pretty low, but I also have 1.12" bars, so, over triple the rate of the original bars.

Assiemick said:

I bought the magnum units. They are for my 1964 Australian valiant same as dart really.
The lower ball joint arms are longer than the originals on the car.

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This isn't accurate. The lower ball joint mounts are in exactly the same place as stock. Exactly. The difference in the appearance of the mount is because the axle stub has been moved up 2" on the face of the spindle. Because of this, Magnumforce removed material between the ball joint mounting holes because it's not necessary for the strength of the face of the spindle anymore. So, it appears that the lower ball joint mount has moved.

But, the tie rod end doesn't move, the axle stub does. That still puts an additional 2" between the center of the wheel and the tie rod end, which changes the bump steer. If you lower the car a full 2", then the tie rod angle remains the same. But, if you don't lower the car the full 2", you increase the angle on the control arms and tie rods, which tends to add more bump steer as well.

It's not a horrific change in geometry, like I said earlier most drivers using their cars in normal street driving situations probably wouldn't notice it. But, that also doesn't mean it isn't there. The big difference isn't between a stock ride height car and one that's been lowered 2" with the drop spindles because the angle of the control arms and tie rods stays the same in that situation. So the roll center remains the same, and the car still benefits from a lower CG. The difference really takes shape though when you compare a car lowered 2" with drop spindles and one that's been lowered with the torsion bar adjusters. The car lowered 2" with drop spindles maintains the stock control arm and tie rod angles, where the car lowered with the adjusters now has control arms and tie rods that are basically parallel to the ground, improving the instant roll center, camber curve, and even improving the amount of bump steer vs stock.

This is a pretty simple diagram and not truly to scale, but it illustrates the angle changes I'm talking about

Hi
Maybe I was given the wrong ball joints but there is a greater distance from the centre of the bottom ball joint to the hole of the tie rod end.
There must be atleast 3/4 inch difference in the length maybe more. I tried to upload a photo of one I had silver and the magnum force unit black. If it uploads you will see.
Regardless of where the wheel ends up the tie rod is pushed further back from the axis of the bottom ball joint. Simply because the bottom ball joint is physically bigger in every respect including its length between the ball joint axis and the tie rod.

Assiemick said:

Hi
Maybe I was given the wrong ball joints but there is a greater distance from the centre of the bottom ball joint to the hole of the tie rod end.
There must be atleast 3/4 inch difference in the length maybe more. I tried to upload a photo of one I had silver and the magnum force unit black. If it uploads you will see.
Regardless of where the wheel ends up the tie rod is pushed further back from the axis of the bottom ball joint. Simply because the bottom ball joint is physically bigger in every respect including its length between the ball joint axis and the tie rod.

Click to expand...

The lower ball joint from Magnumforce is just a regular disk brake lower ball joint. Nothing fancy or special about it, it wasn't designed to improve bump steer or anything for use with the drop spindles. The drop spindles were patterned after 73+ disk spindles, and that's the stock lower ball joint for those.

You'll have to excuse me, I realized that the early 9" drum spindles had a different bolt pattern for the lower ball joint, but I didn't realize the steering arms were also a different length. I don't have a 64-66 car, and my GT's are 10" drum cars which use the later style lower ball joint. So, I forgot that the lower ball joints change on the early 9" drum spindle cars.

I would not buy Fatman spindles. And I wouldn't pay more than the cast Magnum/PST spindles.

You can't beat the price Darter6 got them for. But I've seen some rub the back of the disk and they just don't seem as sturdy as the cast ones.

72bluNblu said:

The lower ball joint from Magnumforce is just a regular disk brake lower ball joint. Nothing fancy or special about it, it wasn't designed to improve bump steer or anything for use with the drop spindles. The drop spindles were patterned after 73+ disk spindles, and that's the stock lower ball joint for those.

You'll have to excuse me, I realized that the early 9" drum spindles had a different bolt pattern for the lower ball joint, but I didn't realize the steering arms were also a different length. I don't have a 64-66 car, and my GT's are 10" drum cars which use the later style lower ball joint. So, I forgot that the lower ball joints change on the early 9" drum spindle cars.

Click to expand...

What else is starting to piss me off.
I was starting to think because the Aussie car's are right hand drive. I thought it may have been a difference between the cars from the west Pacific to the east. I do own a 1964/5 a Barracuda left hand drive and I checked it, and it is the same as my Aussie car.
To stop any drama I actually ordered the stuff ias if they were for the fish in the first place.
I have been considering to put a rack and pinion in the steering boxes place. Just need to get one with the same spread between the inner tie rod ends I think on my Val it's right on 2 foot.
Using the holes in the frame rail for the box and the pitman arm joint as the rack mounts.
Some bump steer can be removed by having some adjustment of the rack in the vertical direction.
You lefty drivers the box is on the k frame.
In fact my Val has the mount on the K frame and even because whilst the new Chrysler factory was still being built in Australia sub assemblies of cars were shipped from the US.
If you look at my gallery you will see a pick of the two master cylinders below in the dark you can just make out the in shaft of the steering box.
As Aussis Vals go mine is also an odd one because it's wipers are for left hand drive most others swing the other way.

72bluNblu said:

The lower ball joint from Magnumforce is just a regular disk brake lower ball joint. Nothing fancy or special about it, it wasn't designed to improve bump steer or anything for use with the drop spindles. The drop spindles were patterned after 73+ disk spindles, and that's the stock lower ball joint for those.

You'll have to excuse me, I realized that the early 9" drum spindles had a different bolt pattern for the lower ball joint, but I didn't realize the steering arms were also a different length. I don't have a 64-66 car, and my GT's are 10" drum cars which use the later style lower ball joint. So, I forgot that the lower ball joints change on the early 9" drum spindle cars.

Click to expand...

What else is starting to piss me off.
I was starting to think because the Aussie car's are right hand drive. I thought it may have been a difference between the cars from the west Pacific to the east. I do own a 1964/5 a Barracuda left hand drive and I checked it, and it is the same as my Aussie car.
To stop any drama I actually ordered the stuff ias if they were for the fish in the first place.
I have been considering to put a rack and pinion in the steering boxes place. Just need to get one with the same spread between the inner tie rod ends I think on my Val it's right on 2 foot.
Using the holes in the frame rail for the box and the pitman arm joint as the rack mounts.
Some bump steer can be removed by having some adjustment of the rack in the vertical direction.
You lefty drivers the box is on the k frame.
In fact my Val has the mount on the K frame and even because whilst the new Chrysler factory was still being built in Australia sub assemblies of cars were shipped from the US.
If you look at my gallery you will see a pick of the two master cylinders below in the dark you can just make out the in shaft of the steering box.
As Aussis Vals go mine is also an odd one because it's wipers are for left hand drive most others swing the other way.

Don't worry about it
I could see the communication problem.
Can you tell me did the steering stuff get bigger just because they wanted to save money using b body components on a bodies.
Also have you or some one you know or reading this put a rack in an a body and what car did it come from?

Assiemick said:

Don't worry about it
I could see the communication problem.
Can you tell me did the steering stuff get bigger just because they wanted to save money using b body components on a bodies.
Also have you or some one you know or reading this put a rack in an a body and what car did it come from?

Click to expand...

The lower ball joints changed because they were actually weak, the later ones were a strength improvement. And that wasn't just a 73+ thing, the ball joints actually changed well before that and even for the 10" drum spindles.

I don't know a lot about them as none of my cars had them, but I do know some folks won't run them because of the strength issue.

I haven't converted any of my cars to rack and pinion, and I think my lack of knowledge on the Aussie cars is going to be a pretty limiting factor on any advice on one. My wheelhouse is really the '71 up cars, and left hand drive. ;)

Thanks for that
I just like to say your 71 darts are pretty much the same as the pacer I had. It first came out in 1969. In Australia the models from all makes start with the financial year. For us it's the 1st July to the 30 June the next year. My car was January 1970. This was the last year of the slant six for us. The model was VF that was consistent with all models of the same year. The car I had was a 318 fireball it had stripes across the tail and up the sides red with white stripes and Pacer decals. Sad to say I cannot find any photos. In my gallery there is my more door VF was also a pacer but it had triple webbers and a four speed. The next model was the VG very similar but the headlights went from the big rounds on the more doors and little rounds on the coups with top end VIP models. To little square things (sealed beams) almost impossible to find a head light for these guys now. The 245 Hemi six came this model honestly the slant was better. Not until the Charger came out in 1972 the motor was punched out to 265 got the triples then was sent for R&d I think Porsche it did come good that car is famous as being a V8 killer. Model prefix I think was E49 in the VJ range. I think that's right.
That was when the body shape changed as it did for you guys but the later cars for us were totally different to you guys. Take a quick look via google (E49 charger) probably one of The best looking Mopars ever.
Sorry for the dribble but it just makes me dream of the past.

I'll re-iterate what 72bluNblu said about getting an alignment whenever you change the height. I adjusted the T-bars in my 69 Dart once to factory height (per manual, A-B measurements) and wore out a new set of tires in a 100 mi trip. It greatly increased the toe-in. By the same token, as the suspension ages and the front sags, you will get toe-out. That may be why old cars have a reputation for wandering on the road (plus worn bushings). You can measure toe-in quite accurately using a tape measure across the treads fwd to aft sides of front tires. You can also sight along the tires at the rears for a quickie (should view ~1" off rears if factory rear-end, etc).

72bluNblu said:

The lower ball joints changed because they were actually weak, the later ones were a strength improvement. And that wasn't just a 73+ thing, the ball joints actually changed well before that and even for the 10" drum spindles.

I don't know a lot about them as none of my cars had them, but I do know some folks won't run them because of the strength issue.

I haven't converted any of my cars to rack and pinion, and I think my lack of knowledge on the Aussie cars is going to be a pretty limiting factor on any advice on one. My wheelhouse is really the '71 up cars, and left hand drive. ;)

Click to expand...

Thanks for posting the info on the front spindles and drop spindles, and handling issues. I now know I need to upgrade my 65 Dart to the 10 inch spindles to be reasonably safe, since the car is going to eventually get some serious hp. I have debated on modifying the lower control arms to drop the shock mount( coilovers) an inch for lowering the front, rather than going with dropped spindles.

gregsdart said:

Thanks for posting the info on the front spindles and drop spindles, and handling issues. I now know I need to upgrade my 65 Dart to the 10 inch spindles to be reasonably safe, since the car is going to eventually get some serious hp. I have debated on modifying the lower control arms to drop the shock mount( coilovers) an inch for lowering the front, rather than going with dropped spindles.

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Just a bit of a back yard tip.
This I guess is good when ever you pull the front end apart.
Firstly this is not permanent thing it's just to get you to the wheel align joint.
Once you think your done go around the block and get the car on some nice smooth concrete flat.
Climb under behind the front wheel best as you can. Mark the tyre with chalk both wheels half way up. Measure with a tape the distance between both wheels at the rear then front. I would like to see the front about 1/8 to 3/16 narrower than the rear.
If it's more or less by a lot Jack up the car and load the lower arms onto Jack stands so the wheels can spin.
Check again using the chalk marks whilst at the front then rotate the wheels half way and check the rear. If you only did a tie rod on one side adjust that side.
I hope that helps the unknowing. ( in the military that's all a fleet car got for a wheel align)

The fatman fab spindles are made from 4 pieces three of which are welded they are the main body and 2 pieces that form the upper ballpoint mount. The spindle is pressed in. It uses the factory lower ballpoint so your steering geometry will remain the same. These are quality looking pieces nice welds and machine work.

Fatman spindles:

And since you can get a decent set of 1.03" torsion bars for $200 and lower the car properly, why would you spend $440-$600 for a set of drop spindles? Heck for the same money you could buy a set of 1.03" torsion bars, a great set of front shocks, AND get the car aligned.[/QUOTE]

And that strategy makes the best sense to me, with a 64 Dart- 4 speed and a warmed up Slant 6. Im going to be all street and looking for what I call "street handling" which I hope it better than stock and allows a little more fun on the curves. Add better shocks and new front end parts and I think I will be happy?
BUT is there a better sway bar to be had?

Fredsgarage said:

And since you can get a decent set of 1.03" torsion bars for $200 and lower the car properly, why would you spend $440-$600 for a set of drop spindles? Heck for the same money you could buy a set of 1.03" torsion bars, a great set of front shocks, AND get the car aligned.

Click to expand...

I did the 1.03 bars and an alignment with the specs off of the soche (think that’s how it’s spelled) chart. Wow what a difference! My only complaint is my front is very noisy. I still need to get some good shocks but I’m waiting to get a new steering box first. I can’t wait to see how good shocks will make it perform. Again this is the best route. You will also need shorter bump stops on the lower arm

back from the dead, but that's good. this needs to be brought up for the new kids once in awhile

kursplat said:

back from the dead, but that's good. this needs to be brought up for the new kids once in awhile

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Yes, I just acquired my 64 Dart /6 four speed car. I will want to upgrade the front end while I have it torned down to the basics, go with 1.03 bars. They should be more than enough for my means.Then I will concentrate on finding a rear end and how to stuff the largest tires under the stock rear wheelwells.