Best suspension options???

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OriginalDart

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Hey guys I'm back after a long hiatus. Randy over at logestein racing built me a very nice 440 so it's time to pull the dart out of storage and get it ready for it's heart transplant. I've decided to opt out of a slick coil over setup. I was looking at the rms alterkation but I don't have 5k to drop.
I was going to order the hotchkis tvs for now. My budget is right around 2.5k - 3k. This kit doesn't include the bigger torsion bars.
So my questions are:

1. What are other companies that make good suspension kits around my budget?
2. Who makes the best torsion bars on the market?
3. Aside from wilwood, what are other brake upgrade options?

The car is a base model 273 dart. 1969
 
I have Hotchkis TVS and the Fox shocks. Super nice. Make sure you get the boots for the UCA heim joints.

1.03 torsion bars from PST are great but will likely work even better with USCT chassis connectors. The connectors can also add to safety ie the car is less likely to fold in half in a collision. I may get a stiffer tb later on.

The K frame is reinforced with Firm Feel kit, as are the LCA.

DEFINITELY get a Borgeson box from Bergman Autocraft. I started with a Firm Feel stage 2 but the improved 14:1 ratio will be better than 16:1 worked stock box.
 
Re brakes, Wilwood are great for the front and for a master cylinder etc. I vac boosted mine too. I went with Wilwood in the rear but the setup reduced my wheel clearance. Dr Diff has a credible setup for the rear, similar to ford cobra mustang brakes I think.
 
I have friends with an HDK setup. He is happy with it. I would try that gersh GTS one if i ever do one as i think its a tad cheaper.

Whats the hotchkis setup? Link?
Thanks!
 
A properly set up torsion bar suspension will out handle any of those mega buck coil over suspensions for less money.
 
I'll spare you the lecture on the coilover systems, replicaracer43 hit it solid. The fastest Mopars still run torsion bars.

The Hotchkis TVS is the closest thing you'll find to a complete "kit" for torsion bar suspensions. That said, it's missing some really important stuff- torsion bars and shocks, for example. It also has some stuff you don't need, like the steering links. Sure they're nice but they really aren't necessary and they won't actually improve much. Hotchkis also has heim jointed UCA's. Long story short, I've found that heim joints don't work all that well for a street car that sees a lot of miles. My first set of Hotchkis heims only lasted 7k miles, my second set did another 7k but probably won't see 10k miles. At the UCA I don't like heims. At the strut rod they're not an issue, the heims on my Challenger's adjustable strut rods have 70k miles on them. Go figure.

Anyway, Hotchkis makes really nice stuff but it's also pricey. So, while there isn't a kit I can give you a list. Firm Feel makes great torsion bars. So does Sway-Away, and so does PST. The 1.03's that PST sells are about $100 cheaper than comparable bars from Firm Feel or Sway-Away, and they're a good size for a street car that isn't being set up for aggressive handling. A good all around bar that won't rattle your eyeballs loose but will still bring your Mopar's handling into this century.

Suspension work:

1.03" (or bigger) torsion bars ------------------------$250-$355
Tubular UCA's (PST, FFI, etc)------------------------$350
Adjustable strut rods (PST SR 14385)---------------$279
Solid tie rod sleeves (PST SAS 440S)----------------$49
LCA boxing plate (PST LCAPLTMOP621)-------------$14.50
Greasable LCA pins (FFI w bushings)----------------$135

Helwig tubular front sway bar 1 1/8” #5906 or 55917 (better tire clearance than the 5906) -- $256
Solid rear 3/4” #6907--------------------------------$237

Rear Springs: 0 arch, something in the 120 lb/in to 130 lb/in rate

Energy suspension 1" shackle bushings 2-2117G----$9

Bilstein RCD shocks(RCD-70-56663)------------------$410

Grand total on that is about $2,300, that's got a little extra built in depending on where you shop and what you buy. These prices are a little old at this point, you'll probably find they're a little higher now.

Chassis work:
Subframe connectors (1.5" x 3", .083" to 1/8" wall)
Torque boxes (US Cartool)
Shock tower to firewall reinforcement (US cartool or tubular "J" bar)
Lower radiator support reinforcement (US Cartool)

Alignment:
-.5° to -1° camber, +3° (minimum) or more caster, 1/16" to 1/8" toe in

For the explanation- I recommend tubular UCA's because you can't really get more than +3° of caster with the stock UCA's and the Moog K7103 offset bushings. That might be ok for you, but really the car will handle better with more caster. I recommend adjustable strut rods to eliminate binding on the LCA travel. The stock set up is "one size fits most" that doesn't usually fit any particular car all that well, and if you upgrade the LCA bushings you need to tune the strut rod length. I used to recommend the Mopar Oval Track rear springs, but their quality has been terrible lately and I won't recommend them until they improve that. It's a shame because they used to be a good, low cost option for an improved rear spring, the other options like Peter Bergman's Eaton springs or the Hotchkis springs are much more expensive.

US Cartool makes great chassis stiffening parts. The only thing I'd skip is their subframe connectors, because really you need to fully strip the car to install those right. And even then you really need a lift or a rotisserie. Without those, just make your own out of rectangular tube. It'll work just as well, and it will be LOTS easier to install. I've done both, and I wouldn't do the US Cartool ones again.

Brakes:
DoctorDiff sells everything you need for front and rear disk conversions. He sells the full 73+ Mopar conversion for the 10.95" brakes (stage I) as well as everything for the 11.75" Mopar disks (stageII). The 11.75's do require 15" or larger rims. He also sells a couple of 13" disk kits, I have the stage III "cobra style" front disks and calipers on my Duster. I ran the 11.75's on my Challenger for 70k miles as a daily driver too, they work fantastic. And everything is off the shelf Mopar on those. The 13" brakes are definitely an improvement, but they also require 17" or larger rims. DoctorDiff's rear disk kits allow you to keep your stock tapered bearings too, most rear disk kits need to be used with green bearings. And Cass (aka, doctordiff), is super knowledgeable and very helpful. One of the best Mopar businesses out there.

Stage I- 10.95" Front Disc Brake Kit (Stage 1)
Stage II-Mopar 11.75" Front Disc Brake Kit (Stage 2)


I have more details on the specific stuff I've done to my car in my build thread, which is linked at the bottom of my signature.

img_4756-jpg-jpg-jpg-jpg-jpg.jpg
 
@autoxcuda should chime in here. His car is badass and I believe he still runs torsion bars. I don't think he's changed yet. I could be wrong.
 
@autoxcuda should chime in here. His car is badass and I believe he still runs torsion bars. I don't think he's changed yet. I could be wrong.

Would be neat to see an exploded view and detailed pics of the S/S A HOTROD cars front ends , they are kick A$$. Part stock and highly refined aftermarket-------
 
Thanks for the description 72bluNblu. I don’t have my car on the road yet, but that almost a word by word description of my build. I bought pieces at a time from people on here, and some stuff direct.
I used the UScartool sub frames - rotisserie for installation. If I was working on a completed car, I would build my own, plus
Torque boxes, shock brace, core support,
Firm Feel T bars
Hotchkis front and rear sway bars
Fox Hotchkis spec shocks
Reilly struts and upper arms
16:1 box
C- body tie rods/PST adjusters
PST greaseable pins
Speedway rear spring sliders
And for the time being, may change in the future -
Cordoba brakes,

Today I am welding sway mounts to arms and K so I can pull it back apart & send it to blaster.
I dreamt of the XV Motorsport when I first started, but couldn’t get over the cost. Then Bill Reilly came along, and I was sure I was putting his system in. Once I saw the Hotchkis Taxi, I knew that’s where I was going.
I’m thinking later though I wonder how the T-bar front setup would pair with Reilly’s Street Lynx rear, hmmm
 
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Question for some of you with completed cars with 1”+ T bars-
At ride height, how much space do you have between the lower control arm bumper and the frame pad?
And/or do you run a shorter bumper, or move the frame pad up any?
 
Question for some of you with completed cars with 1”+ T bars-
At ride height, how much space do you have between the lower control arm bumper and the frame pad?
And/or do you run a shorter bumper, or move the frame pad up any?

I run a shorter LCA bump stop and a taller UCA bump stop to recenter the range of travel around my lower ride height. I still run about 1” of space between the short bump stop and the frame, with the 1.12” torsion bars I run that’s about the minimum to keep it off the bump stops all the time. I haven’t moved the pad on the frame, but I do have QA1 lower control arms.

These are the lower bumps stops I use
Energy Suspension Bump Stops 9.9132G

Uppers
Energy Suspension Bump Stops 9.9136G
 
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All good info. If you want a set of components designed for you PM me. There is no one company solution for many reasons.

Totally agree with Peter, there really isn’t a one stop shop solution for everything handling related with these cars. And not all the best parts come from one place. But if you want some of the best handling suspension parts available for these cars, Bergman Autocraft sells them.

I don’t always mention Bergman Autocraft but that’s no slight on Peter. The SPC upper control arms and Delrin lower control arm bushings he sells are in my opinion the best stuff out there if you’re setting a car up for autoX, road racing or even aggressive street handling. They’re just more expensive if you’re trying to do a more budget friendly build. And while they’re super nice, they are kinda overkill for the average “decent handling street car” build.

I do love the SPC UCA’s and delrin bushings on my car though. :D
 
A properly set up torsion bar suspension will out handle any of those mega buck coil over suspensions for less money.
Maybe so but that IS NOT the question! I want a suspension that will handle a Gen II Hemi with the
room they require. Those mods you are talking have nothing to do with fitting the engine in the chassis. We already know you can make the torsion bar setup handle well but that is NOT our concern! Now tell
me exactly how to easily accommodate the Hemi with the stock torsion bar setup.
 
Maybe so but that IS NOT the question! I want a suspension that will handle a Gen II Hemi with the
room they require. Those mods you are talking have nothing to do with fitting the engine in the chassis. We already know you can make the torsion bar setup handle well but that is NOT our concern! Now tell
me exactly how to easily accommodate the Hemi with the stock torsion bar setup.

Uh, actually, it IS the question that was asked in this thread. The OP isn't installing a hemi. So, yeah, none of the questions you have about your engine fitting the chassis are covered here. There are tons of threads on fitting hemi's in A-bodies. This isn't one of them.

Maybe you would be better served by starting your own thread and asking how to go about fitting the hemi you've got into the car you have. When you do that, it would also be helpful to say which car you have, what hemi you're installing, and what your goals for the car are. Just a thought.
 
Maybe so but that IS NOT the question! I want a suspension that will handle a Gen II Hemi with the
room they require. Those mods you are talking have nothing to do with fitting the engine in the chassis. We already know you can make the torsion bar setup handle well but that is NOT our concern! Now tell
me exactly how to easily accommodate the Hemi with the stock torsion bar setup.
It might be a good idea to READ the post before you comment. Nobody said anything about a gen 2 hemi...and if your curious, they CAN, and HAVE been installed in A bodys with torsion bar suspension, since at least 1968......
 
Besides the pissin match, there are three people on here whose advice I would seek out were I getting ready to make a major suspension purchase or change. That guy up there @72bluNblu ^^^^^^ in post #7, @autoxcuda and @replicaracer43 .

Why? Because all those guys know what they're doing. I've almost 30 years alignment and suspension experience, but not on race stuff. Just everyday drivers. If you want good advice, listen to those three. They won't steer you wrong. No pun intended. If you pay attention, you can tell whose done what here and who knows what's goin on. Those are three that do.
 
Maybe so but that IS NOT the question! I want a suspension that will handle a Gen II Hemi with the
room they require. Those mods you are talking have nothing to do with fitting the engine in the chassis. We already know you can make the torsion bar setup handle well but that is NOT our concern! Now tell
me exactly how to easily accommodate the Hemi with the stock torsion bar setup.
Calm down Hoss, I think you’re the first to mention a Hemi in this thread.
 
Maybe so but that IS NOT the question! I want a suspension that will handle a Gen II Hemi with the
room they require. Those mods you are talking have nothing to do with fitting the engine in the chassis. We already know you can make the torsion bar setup handle well but that is NOT our concern! Now tell
me exactly how to easily accommodate the Hemi with the stock torsion bar setup.

Lemmie go up to the top real quick......BRB......



Yeah that's what I thought. This ain't your thread. It's the thread @OriginalDart started.You need to go make your own thread, instead of trashin on someone else's.
 
I'll spare you the lecture on the coilover systems, replicaracer43 hit it solid. The fastest Mopars still run torsion bars.

The Hotchkis TVS is the closest thing you'll find to a complete "kit" for torsion bar suspensions. That said, it's missing some really important stuff- torsion bars and shocks, for example. It also has some stuff you don't need, like the steering links. Sure they're nice but they really aren't necessary and they won't actually improve much. Hotchkis also has heim jointed UCA's. Long story short, I've found that heim joints don't work all that well for a street car that sees a lot of miles. My first set of Hotchkis heims only lasted 7k miles, my second set did another 7k but probably won't see 10k miles. At the UCA I don't like heims. At the strut rod they're not an issue, the heims on my Challenger's adjustable strut rods have 70k miles on them. Go figure.

Anyway, Hotchkis makes really nice stuff but it's also pricey. So, while there isn't a kit I can give you a list. Firm Feel makes great torsion bars. So does Sway-Away, and so does PST. The 1.03's that PST sells are about $100 cheaper than comparable bars from Firm Feel or Sway-Away, and they're a good size for a street car that isn't being set up for aggressive handling. A good all around bar that won't rattle your eyeballs loose but will still bring your Mopar's handling into this century.

Suspension work:

1.03" (or bigger) torsion bars ------------------------$250-$355
Tubular UCA's (PST, FFI, etc)------------------------$350
Adjustable strut rods (PST SR 14385)---------------$279
Solid tie rod sleeves (PST SAS 440S)----------------$49
LCA boxing plate (PST LCAPLTMOP621)-------------$14.50
Greasable LCA pins (FFI w bushings)----------------$135

Helwig tubular front sway bar 1 1/8” #5906 or 55917 (better tire clearance than the 5906) -- $256
Solid rear 3/4” #6907--------------------------------$237

Rear Springs: 0 arch, something in the 120 lb/in to 130 lb/in rate

Energy suspension 1" shackle bushings 2-2117G----$9

Bilstein RCD shocks(RCD-70-56663)------------------$410

Grand total on that is about $2,300, that's got a little extra built in depending on where you shop and what you buy. These prices are a little old at this point, you'll probably find they're a little higher now.

Chassis work:
Subframe connectors (1.5" x 3", .083" to 1/8" wall)
Torque boxes (US Cartool)
Shock tower to firewall reinforcement (US cartool or tubular "J" bar)
Lower radiator support reinforcement (US Cartool)

Alignment:
-.5° to -1° camber, +3° (minimum) or more caster, 1/16" to 1/8" toe in

For the explanation- I recommend tubular UCA's because you can't really get more than +3° of caster with the stock UCA's and the Moog K7103 offset bushings. That might be ok for you, but really the car will handle better with more caster. I recommend adjustable strut rods to eliminate binding on the LCA travel. The stock set up is "one size fits most" that doesn't usually fit any particular car all that well, and if you upgrade the LCA bushings you need to tune the strut rod length. I used to recommend the Mopar Oval Track rear springs, but their quality has been terrible lately and I won't recommend them until they improve that. It's a shame because they used to be a good, low cost option for an improved rear spring, the other options like Peter Bergman's Eaton springs or the Hotchkis springs are much more expensive.

US Cartool makes great chassis stiffening parts. The only thing I'd skip is their subframe connectors, because really you need to fully strip the car to install those right. And even then you really need a lift or a rotisserie. Without those, just make your own out of rectangular tube. It'll work just as well, and it will be LOTS easier to install. I've done both, and I wouldn't do the US Cartool ones again.

Brakes:
DoctorDiff sells everything you need for front and rear disk conversions. He sells the full 73+ Mopar conversion for the 10.95" brakes (stage I) as well as everything for the 11.75" Mopar disks (stageII). The 11.75's do require 15" or larger rims. He also sells a couple of 13" disk kits, I have the stage III "cobra style" front disks and calipers on my Duster. I ran the 11.75's on my Challenger for 70k miles as a daily driver too, they work fantastic. And everything is off the shelf Mopar on those. The 13" brakes are definitely an improvement, but they also require 17" or larger rims. DoctorDiff's rear disk kits allow you to keep your stock tapered bearings too, most rear disk kits need to be used with green bearings. And Cass (aka, doctordiff), is super knowledgeable and very helpful. One of the best Mopar businesses out there.

Stage I- 10.95" Front Disc Brake Kit (Stage 1)
Stage II-Mopar 11.75" Front Disc Brake Kit (Stage 2)


I have more details on the specific stuff I've done to my car in my build thread, which is linked at the bottom of my signature.

View attachment 1715315134

Dam ! I f that don`t answer ur question, it aunt gonna get answered !

Unrelated , but does anyone know how to get a fairly decent ride with a caltrac system ?
I just changed coil overs and rechanged my home made front strutrods, and actually have a decent riding drag race front end now---"not a corner carver by any means ". Would like to get a better ride out of the caltrac rear end -thot about taking the bars off for the street , but would be afraid of axle wrap.----------???
 
Dam ! I f that don`t answer ur question, it aunt gonna get answered !

Unrelated , but does anyone know how to get a fairly decent ride with a caltrac system ?
I just changed coil overs and rechanged my home made front strutrods, and actually have a decent riding drag race front end now---"not a corner carver by any means ". Would like to get a better ride out of the caltrac rear end -thot about taking the bars off for the street , but would be afraid of axle wrap.----------???

Tried looking at one of the many Caltrac threads? Why is everyone so hell bent on hijacking this thread?
 
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