HEI upgrade, wont start (no spark?)

-
Stiffler

Stiffler

Active Member
Joined
May 26, 2019
Messages
41
Reaction score
50
Location
PNW
Ok, I've been driving myself crazy with this all day. This is on a 1964 Dart 270

I have got this HEI kit from ebay:
Dodge Mopar Slant 6 Electronic Distributor Kit Fits 170-198-225 Slant Six. SALE! | eBay

So this came with a new coil. The instructions that came with it are ok I guess. I did make all the connections I believe. In the pic below is a drawing of the connections as I understood it.

It was running on the old points and original distributor, but a bit rough at take offs and since I want to upgrade a lot of components on the car, figured I'd go ahead and do this.

Currently the car is not starting, it cranks fine. What I have done:

Ran a ground wire from the box where I screwed it down on the fender, to a ground.
New spark plugs gapped at .045.
I have checked for TDC on cylinder #1 several times with a piston stop.
Plug wires are in the correct order (1 5 3 6 2 4) clockwise on cap.
Rotor is pointing to cylinder #1.
I have even tried pulling out the distributor and advancing the rotor gear one tooth at a time and placing the distributor back in. Must have gone around twice doing this.
The problem must be in getting spark. I saw spark from the coil plug early on, but now I am not seeing any, so maybe it was a fluke that I saw, I dunno. And this is why I spent all that time on the above :D cause I thought there was spark....
I have used a test light to see that I have power at both sides of the ballast resistor with key in run.
Test light on + side of coil is good with key in run.
Test light on - side of coil lights up when cranking.
Put a spark plug on some different metal surfaces and got nothing.
I have ensured the battery is staying charged.

Is there another connection that I need to make somewhere that is not explained?

Many thanks!

HEI instructions 1.jpg
HEI instructions 2.jpg
 
Last edited:
For starters the orange box setup is electronic not HEI.

Check the reluctor gap. You need a brass feeler gauge.
 
Last edited:
OK, assuming that all the parts you received are functioning, follow this diagram.
The simplest way to determining which (original wiring) lead is which Run vs Run/Start, is to unplug one end of the original ballast resistor. Put the ignition key in Run, and then test to see if the unplugged end is hot or not (with a meter or test light). If the unplugged end is hot, then this is the 'Feed' (Run) wire to use for power to the ignition module. Also, you HAVE TO GROUND the case of the control module. If, after checking this, you still do not have some sort of spark-then I suspect a faulty control module or distributor pickup. The more likely culprit would be the module. You can ask for an ignition control module for a 1976 Dart or Volare (any engine size) at any auto parts store and this should get you the appropriate module. Just an FYI on modules. If your original module has 5 pins, and your system is wired for this, the replacement module may only have 4 pins. The 4 pin module is a direct replacement for the 5 pin modules and will work with NO Changes to your factory wiring. You will notice on the attached wiring diagram that the fifth pin is not even connected.
mopar-electronic-ignition-wiring-diagram-gooddy-2.jpg

Jus sayin
 
fklskv said:
For starters the orange box setup is electronic not HEI.

Check the reluctor gap. You need a brass feeler gauge.
Click to expand...
Right, my mistake, named the type wrong.
I will double check these.

lilnoah said:
If using HEI ballast resistor is bypassed.
Click to expand...
My mistake, it's not HEI.

Red63440 said:
Did you try putting you old coil back in?
Click to expand...
This thought occurred to me as I lay in bed last night lol. I will try this.

Badvert65 said:
OK, assuming that all the parts you received are functioning, follow this diagram.
The simplest way to determining which (original wiring) lead is which Run vs Run/Start, is to unplug one end of the original ballast resistor. Put the ignition key in Run, and then test to see if the unplugged end is hot or not (with a meter or test light). If the unplugged end is hot, then this is the 'Feed' (Run) wire to use for power to the ignition module. Also, you HAVE TO GROUND the case of the control module. If, after checking this, you still do not have some sort of spark-then I suspect a faulty control module or distributor pickup. The more likely culprit would be the module. You can ask for an ignition control module for a 1976 Dart or Volare (any engine size) at any auto parts store and this should get you the appropriate module. Just an FYI on modules. If your original module has 5 pins, and your system is wired for this, the replacement module may only have 4 pins. The 4 pin module is a direct replacement for the 5 pin modules and will work with NO Changes to your factory wiring. You will notice on the attached wiring diagram that the fifth pin is not even connected.
Jus sayin
Click to expand...
That diagram matches what I drew up from reading the instructions. I have confirmed the "feed" wire multiple times. The only wire I am not 100% sure of is the wire from Coil+ to the start side of the ballast resistor, I assume this would be the existing wire at the Coil+ and already runs from the Coil+ to Ballast Start side. I will use a multi-meter to confirm and will run a new wire if needed. I will also try a different ground source. If that all fails, I guess I'll go try a new ECU, looks like maybe $25 at the parts store.

Thank you all for your help! I'll try these few items when I wake up a bit more :thankyou:
 
Ballast wire to the coil shoul be battery voltage at start and 9-10 in run.

Bypass the ballast by jumping it until you get the thing running. You should have battery voltage at all times. Start or run. Once she running, remove the jumper
 
Hate to bear the bad news, but you got played/pwned by a dishonest eBay seller.

1. That's not an "HEI" setup. See the HEI upgrade article for info on what HEI is, which parts are best, and where to get them.

2. Blah blah blah "heavy-duty STEEL distributor drive pinion, not like those feeble plastic ones that always break" blahbitty blah blah, sez the seller. False! Every Slant-6 engine made, from the first one in late '59 clear on through to the last one made in Mexico in the late '90s, came with a nylon distributor drive pinion. They work fine for many, many years and miles, and they aren't prone to breakage, and they're exactly what you want to have if something goes wrong with your distributor and it locks up. Nylon gear = engine stops. Steel gear = trashed camshaft and good chance of trashed oil pump.

3. Speaking of something wrong with distributor: that's a cheap Chinese copycat distributor with all the quality and dependability you have a right to expect from a cheap Chinese distributor-shaped trinket. Very likely same "quality" level in the ignition control box and coil and other components.

Whatever the specific problem is that's preventing your engine starting, it's not likely to be the only or last one you experience with this fraudulently-described kit you bought. :-(
 
To be sure the issue isn't the ignition switch and other wires along the way.
Run a jumper from battery positive to plus side of coil. Run another jumper from battery positive to blue wire in photo in post 5. Crank the engine and if it fired and runs you have a problem with the wiring not the new parts.
 
slantsixdan said:
Hate to bear the bad news, but you got played/pwned by a dishonest eBay seller.
:-(
Click to expand...
I started realizing this last night :(

None of the suggestions in here worked, so I can only think that one of the components is bad.

I ended up cleaning up the old points distributor components and put that back in and it fired right up. I will revisit the electronic ignition at a later date. Thank you all for chiming in, I still learned a bunch!

I am chalking this one up to a lesson learned :thumbsup:
 
Slantsixdan is one of the most knowledgeable on here. Click on his link and run the HEI he recommends. You wont be sorry.

Send that other crap back to eBay.
 
slantsixdan said:
Hate to bear the bad news, but you got played/pwned by a dishonest eBay seller.

1. That's not an "HEI" setup. See the HEI upgrade article for info on what HEI is, which parts are best, and where to get them.

2. Blah blah blah "heavy-duty STEEL distributor drive pinion, not like those feeble plastic ones that always break" blahbitty blah blah, sez the seller. False! Every Slant-6 engine made, from the first one in late '59 clear on through to the last one made in Mexico in the late '90s, came with a nylon distributor drive pinion. They work fine for many, many years and miles, and they aren't prone to breakage, and they're exactly what you want to have if something goes wrong with your distributor and it locks up. Nylon gear = engine stops. Steel gear = trashed camshaft and good chance of trashed oil pump.

3. Speaking of something wrong with distributor: that's a cheap Chinese copycat distributor with all the quality and dependability you have a right to expect from a cheap Chinese distributor-shaped trinket. Very likely same "quality" level in the ignition control box and coil and other components.

Whatever the specific problem is that's preventing your engine starting, it's not likely to be the only or last one you experience with this fraudulently-described kit you bought. :-(
Click to expand...
 
Hi Dan , not to high jack the thread , What do you think of the fbo box?
 
Not bein a smartass (I know that's hard to believe) but why do you think you need to "upgrade" your ignition system? When I got my 64 Valiant back in January, I didn't even think of putting electronic ignition on the car. What it had was the original point type setup and it ran. I did however, replace the distributor and all ignition related parts with good new quality parts, simply for the sake of having new parts. Little car runs like a dream. A properly adjusted point type ignition in good shape will run every bit as good as any electronic variant. Although people will argue the point to death, it's true. If you see a difference when you "upgrade" to electronic ignition, then something was wrong with the point type. Most often, all you need is a good tune up and properly adjusted points and all is well.

Of course there are advantages to good electronic ignition kits with quality parts. Some do offer faster starting, but then, how big a darn hurry are you in? And of course there's the no parts contacting each other so it won't wear out thing. That's nice, but electronic parts do still fail.

What's your intended use for the car? I swear, if it's not 100% point$ drag racing on the strip all the time, and you're just wanting to drive on the street, save your money and stick with the points.

If you're bound and determined to dump the points, I highly recommend slantsixdan's post above detailing his GM HEI ignition conversion. If I ever decide to do mine, that's what I'll do. EXACTLY a she outlines, part numbers and all. I'll likely never do it though. I kinda like points.
 
Last edited:
Slantsix64 said:
HEI is junk now
Click to expand...

Only if you make thoughtless choices of parts.

Chinese pieces that dont last anymore better off sticking with the mopar ECU
Click to expand...

You think most of the Mopar-type ECUs available now aren't Chinese garbage? LOL, they are. You have to shop carefully and be a picky bastard no matter what car parts you're buying.
 
slantsixdan said:
Only if you make thoughtless choices of parts.



You think most of the Mopar-type ECUs available now aren't Chinese garbage? LOL, they are. You have to shop carefully and be a picky bastard no matter what car parts you're buying.
Click to expand...
Hey Dan, I used accel, master pro, borg warner, D.u.i lasted a year , but they would all go out hitting 5000k. Mopar Ecu is Chinese made no doubt about that but lasts longer, maybe for a daily driver that doesn't push the slant too it's limits h.e.i will work but for me didn't work out.
 
As you say, it depends on the application. The answers are different for a daily driver versus a fast race car. My specific component recommendations are in the linked article.
 
RustyRatRod said:
Not bein a smartass (I know that's hard to believe) but why do you think you need to "upgrade" your ignition system? ...............simply for the sake of having new parts..
Click to expand...

hah, no problem, you hit right on the answer. :)
 
slantsixdan said:
As you say, it depends on the application. The answers are different for a daily driver versus a fast race car. My specific component recommendations are in the linked article.
Click to expand...

And thanks for that article, Dan. You're a wealth of knowledge and always willing to share. While you may not have come up with the HEI swap, you certainly put all the information in one place, including part numbers and all. You probably don't get near the thanks around here you deserve. Thank you.
 
Be fair, the ebay seller was not dishonest. I don't read "HEI" anywhere in the ad.
Rather than turn-over your engine constantly, remove the distributor and spin it by hand. Wire-up temp w/ alligator clips and use a multimeter to verify supply voltages. Use an inline spark tester to verify spark ($3 Harbor Freight).

If you haven't wired the Mopar box into your car yet, I would not use it and instead use the distributor to trigger a GM 8-pin HEI module & coil (85-95 V-8 trucks or TrailBeast' kit). That lets you eliminate the ballast resistor and get a stronger spark. Look real close at the 2-pin bullet connector for the pickup. I have found some on aftermarket Mopar pickups that weren't quite right. The male terminal was too short and didn't make solid contact. Those are used in appliances as well, but the Mopar ones are slightly different, and the Chinese haven't figured that out yet.
 
7/8 pin HEI requires a computer to control the unit. The 4 pin HEI doesn't.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
-

Back
Top