Honestly, it sounds about right. I would think a little more HP, nether here or there though....
More cam and lift!
What header & exhaust tube?
Trick Flow small block heads
- Thread starter B3422w5
- Start date
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More cam and lift!
What header & exhaust tube?
DrEamer
I suffer from cars on the brain!
The Quote AndyF about the headers, "I think those are 1 3/4 Schoenfeld sprint car headers but I bought them a long time ago so I'm not positive.'
As far as more cam and lift, I think that is kind of the conclusion that they are thinking. This engine is for a street car, so a good cam for it. That said, Blueprint is getting 445 HP/500 Torque with Eddy's and a flat tappet, and ATK is getting 465HP/535 torque with a similar hydraulic roller with Eddy's for comparison.
Not hard to figure out what they like. A great start would be more lift. What a waste of a good flowing head.
DrEamer
I suffer from cars on the brain!
I think you are right, I think even with a small increase in lift, there would be a big improvement. I would like to see something in the .550 to .575 on the intake. Also, this is getting the range where a small single plane might be good, even for a street engine.
Duster3406pck
Member
IMM Engines facebook page says the heads flow 290cfm @ .500 lift I would think that cam should make more than 439hp with those heads
I proved to myself and buddy that an intake like the LD340 CAN be a "half descent" intake but not out of the box and many of these "dyno guys" either have to send it out or just risk getting a paper cut or staple cut ripping open the box. Take a Victor340 and spend 1 1/2 hours gasket matching it and doing some radius work in the plenum then you have a good intake.
if you go by TrickFlows numbers they say 281@.500 and 248@.400 lift. by time you take pushrod deflection and the dreaded small block pushrod angle how long do you think that "dinky" cam is spending at .500 lift. Not very long.
What is the compression ratio?
The thing here is, at least IMO, that even at the lift the cam has, there’s no real cylinder feeding time. The head is seeing only like 80% of the lift on the curve that sees the lower lift twice and barley gets into the peak lift score it rapidly flys past.
If the lift was increased, generously!, the power would respond. I also believe that more duration would be a huge plus. Adding in cylinder filling “time” would be great.
Also, as mentioned, an RPM up top a head like this (or likewise a fully ported set of RPM heads) is hampering the ultimate power output of the engine. While great for torque production, HP suffers because the intake, as cast, OOTB, is a serious limitation on best performance HP wise. Even if the intake is well ported it cuts the top end off.
More lift?
More the merry!
mopowers
Well-Known Member
Stop comparing dyno numbers from different dynos.
PRH
Well-Known Member
My opinion is that people were expecting something magical to happen when the TF heads were substituted for something like RPM heads on a very mild street build...... and it didn’t happen.
Which just points out that there really aren’t any magic parts, and it’s all about the combination.
The true test, again IMO, to see the viability, or possible benefit, of using the TF heads on a mild build like this vs an RPM head...... is to test them both on the same motor, back to back...... and both run ootb.
With the Greys build, it would be interesting to know who made the decisions on the combo, and whether or not there was a conversation about what the expected power output would be.
I think a combo more like Toulenes is going to better exploit the attributes of the TF heads.
But I’m sure there will be plenty of dyno data sprinkling out over the next few months for people to mull over.
Which just points out that there really aren’t any magic parts, and it’s all about the combination.
The true test, again IMO, to see the viability, or possible benefit, of using the TF heads on a mild build like this vs an RPM head...... is to test them both on the same motor, back to back...... and both run ootb.
With the Greys build, it would be interesting to know who made the decisions on the combo, and whether or not there was a conversation about what the expected power output would be.
I think a combo more like Toulenes is going to better exploit the attributes of the TF heads.
But I’m sure there will be plenty of dyno data sprinkling out over the next few months for people to mull over.
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DrEamer
I suffer from cars on the brain!
Fair enough, it's just numbers for thought. It is just like comparing flow numbers from different benches, you are going to get a different number, but still get a general idea of flow even though they do not come from the same bench.
B3422w5
Well-Known Member
I dont get why guys give up so much performance to build a combo thats “ streetable”
Just guessing, but i bet 90% of people i have met that have muscle cars use them only in fair weather, non rainy days, and don't take them on long trips.
Some might argue, but that has been my experience
I have a street strip car. My cam is 260@50 and my convertor flashes 5000
I can drive it as far as i want or desire to drive a 50 year old car without A/C in the summertime
I wouldnt drive it further if it had a 230@50 cam and 3000 stall convertor. So my thought is why give up all the power if you enjoy taking your car to the track, like i do.
Gas mileage is of zero concern to me. I have a daily driver(s) for that with air, cruise and a nice sound system i can listen to while getting 30mpg.
In short, i think people “ overthink” what is and isn't streetable.
I understand some people have a nice 71 Duster with a slant 6 they drive everywhere, and it might be the only car they have.
This isn't directed at them. Its more to the guys that talk on these kinds of forums and are giving up a lot of performance they dont have to.
I race everything i have ever owned. I also drive everything. Difference is, i am not out to prove reliability on a power tour, but respect people who do.
No way i would ever buy a nice set of heads like trick flows and stick a tiny “ streeter” cam in it and make a pooch out of a high potential combination
Rant over.... lol
Just guessing, but i bet 90% of people i have met that have muscle cars use them only in fair weather, non rainy days, and don't take them on long trips.
Some might argue, but that has been my experience
I have a street strip car. My cam is 260@50 and my convertor flashes 5000
I can drive it as far as i want or desire to drive a 50 year old car without A/C in the summertime
I wouldnt drive it further if it had a 230@50 cam and 3000 stall convertor. So my thought is why give up all the power if you enjoy taking your car to the track, like i do.
Gas mileage is of zero concern to me. I have a daily driver(s) for that with air, cruise and a nice sound system i can listen to while getting 30mpg.
In short, i think people “ overthink” what is and isn't streetable.
I understand some people have a nice 71 Duster with a slant 6 they drive everywhere, and it might be the only car they have.
This isn't directed at them. Its more to the guys that talk on these kinds of forums and are giving up a lot of performance they dont have to.
I race everything i have ever owned. I also drive everything. Difference is, i am not out to prove reliability on a power tour, but respect people who do.
No way i would ever buy a nice set of heads like trick flows and stick a tiny “ streeter” cam in it and make a pooch out of a high potential combination
Rant over.... lol
PRH
Well-Known Member
Would have been interesting to slide a typical bracket race type solid cam in it to see what happened........ with no other changes to the combo.
It starts out strong with the big tq number....... then just runs out of duration and the power drops off.
It starts out strong with the big tq number....... then just runs out of duration and the power drops off.
If I was this so called engine building expert and someone brought these parts to me I would show them the door and hold it for them. I got no time for that and probably would have recommended Speedmaster heads for that combo and saved him a few bucks.
B3422w5
Well-Known Member
Couldnt agree more. Hey, you gonna be at Monster Mopar old buddy?
this is why my street car always turns heads and gets thumbs up, even the occasional ear covering from kids. I only drive it when it's nice, so I made it fun.
B3422w5
Well-Known Member
Me too. If it dont make some steam to me it isnt worth the hassle of workin on it, storing it in the winter, insuring it, you name it
PRH
Well-Known Member
There isn’t anything inherently “wrong” with that build.
If I were in the engine building business...... you know...... to make money....... and someone wanted that exact engine built ..... I’d build it.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
I trust Greys numbers. It's bullshit to say all Dynos read differently. They may show raw numbers that are different, but the corrected numbers should be less than 1%, just like a flow bench.
Liars are liars and they will lie any way they can. It's not the dyno's fault if the numbers lie. That is an operator issue.
If Greys dyno says it made what he says it made, that's what it made.
When someone says don't compare flow bench so ready Dynos you can know they don't know much about using measuring tools, which is all they are.
It’s all about the combo & what your building it for. When I seen the above combo with that power out out from the cam, I did t think it was bad, just a good head under utilized.
Since the duration dictates the rpm range your power band and it is going in a car to be operating in that band, I don’t see much sense upping the duration for the given perameters.
(What ever they are)
Jumping 20*’s in duration is a lot for a vehicle designed for a 230* duration cam. That would need a bunch more gear and certainly a bunch in the converter.
While I think it’ll wake the engine up it probably won’t be happy in the car as a combo.
I agree & like said above, perhaps someone was expecting something magical? It’s all about the combo.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
First off, those heads are TOO FING SMALL for 400 inches. Anyone that thinks they are too big has spent too much time burning the hippie lettuce.
Second, as I say all the time, you can't go by flow numbers. That engine would be 70-80 HP better with a set of W2 heads with nothing but a quality valve job.
The intake manifold was wrong. So was using EFI like that on that intake.
Again, if Grey says that's what it makes, I believe him.
But to say those heads are too big is *** backwards and full blown retarded.
I don't think I am going to make it again. When he moved the date it really messed me up as we have three 15000.00 races and a 5000.00 race 50 minutes from my house at Keystone. I was doing pretty good last year when a wheelie got me out of the groove a little and I lost by .004 so I got her tamed down now.
He said
“Hippie lettuce!!!!!”
Man! I’m gonna ride that saying like a $2 buck hoe all the way to China!
“Hippie lettuce!!!!!”
Man! I’m gonna ride that saying like a $2 buck hoe all the way to China!
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