Spring Pressures. Solid roller lifter on a hyd roller cam.

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lomchivok

lomchivok

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Going to replace my failing hyd roller lifters with crane solid rollers on my Hughes SER3438ALN-10 hyd roller cam. Duration@ .050 is 234/238 and 536/540 lift. My heads have beehives, the IMM indy SB Mopar Heads. Seat pressure is about 140 seat psi, and depending on lift of the cam, anywhere from 300-335 open psi.
Wondering if the ramps on the hyd roller cam will let me get away with running the springs installed on the heads now. Will upgrade if absolutely necessary. 408 LA rev limiter set @ 5500.
 
I'd think if the design of the lifters are the same aside from hydraulics - you should be fine. The solids are lighter. But you wan the same diameter roller wheel, and same height pushrod cup if you can get them. The roller at minimum.
 
The lifters are Crane 69515-16 solids to replace the Hughes HUG 5321 hyd retro rollers. I've got both lifters here but my hand mikes are at the shop. Can't fully see to measure the Hughes wheel and can't find wheel dia info through my searches. What would wheel diameter effect...rotational wheel speed, possible oil band exposure at base circle...? Edit: Got a checker push rod set on the way.
 
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I am an engineer for Crower and design cam masters for a living. The ramp rates between a Hydraulic and a solid are completely different. Solid roller masters are very slow from 0.005" to about 0.020" of cam lift, this is to take up the lash, then exponential ramp up up from 0.020" to max lift. A hydraulic roller master ramp in much faster right at 0.005" and steadily ramp up to max lift. Also most solid rollers need ALOT more spring pressures than a Hydraulic. All our solid rollers need Minimum of 250# on the seat and 650# over the nose for a street solid roller. The pressures that you have are perfect for a Hydraulic roller. Now I have seen people do this before and make it work by tightening up the lash to say 0.008" - 0.010" but I would ask the cam manufacture what the ramp velocity is and adjust from there. The reason for the tighten up of the lash is because the ramp are ramping much sooner than on a solid and this will keep it quieter. Now for the final question "Will it make more or less power" I can say that we have tested this hundreds of times on our company dyno and the power is with in 10-15hp with the hydraulic on a hydraulic making more power 95% of the time over a solid on a hydraulic, once again this all depends on the ramp rates. If you have any questions please just ask. I hope this helps.
 
Thanks for the response. Ya, I knew there would be a power difference and more power isn't my goal. I just have a bad taste in my mouth about hydraulic rollers, possibly unfounded but reinforced by my bad experience with 2 complete new sets plus 6 of Hughes retro rollers. I'll more than likely change the springs but I'm going to run the hydro roller cam for now. I'm building another 360 stroker that will use these heads, this time with a factory roller LA block that will be fit with a solid roller cam.
 
I have done this several times. Kept spring pressures the same as hyd roller. Lash on alum heads 002 int 004 exh cold. Steel heads 006 int 008 exh cold. Have always seen a slight increase in hp with this.
 
My comment on the roller diameter was because of that take up ramp differences I assumed were present. The roller will determine the effect of the ramp. I "think" any combo would "work". But you need stability for long term service life.
 
What problem are you having with the lifters? I've got a 218/222 .540 lift (1.6 rockers) Hughes cam in my magnum with OE hydraulic roller lifters. It runs great but I'm switching to edelbrock heads and I ordered the same cam you have.
 
1994redram said:
What problem are you having with the lifters? I've got a 218/222 .540 lift (1.6 rockers) Hughes cam in my magnum with OE hydraulic roller lifters. It runs great but I'm switching to edelbrock heads and I ordered the same cam you have.
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I have an LA non roller block retrofitted with the Hughes retro hyd rollers Hughes Engines.

I think that because of the side load the push rod angle applies to the lifter that it causes excessive leak down over time from the plunger to lifter inner bore clearance opening up. Had to send em all back twice for replacement and they are failing again with probably 10,000 miles on a new 408. Hughes recommends 10w30. They told me to up it to 20W50 should fix the problem...Nope!

Cranking with a remote starter shows that the bad lifters wont pump up. After about 10 revolutions cranking and stopping with a valve closed I can immediately easily move the rocker and feel it bottom out in the lifter. Sent the original set back and they gave me a new set, sent that one back and they gave me another complete set. 6 of the last set have failed now so I'm done with em.
 
lomchivok said:
I have an LA non roller block retrofitted with the Hughes retro hyd rollers Hughes Engines.

I think that because of the side load the push rod angle applies to the lifter that it causes excessive leak down over time from the plunger to lifter inner bore clearance opening up. Had to send em all back twice for replacement and they are failing again with probably 10,000 miles on a new 408. Hughes recommends 10w30. They told me to up it to 20W50 should fix the problem...Nope!

Cranking with a remote starter shows that the bad lifters wont pump up. After about 10 revolutions cranking and stopping with a valve closed I can immediately easily move the rocker and feel it bottom out in the lifter. Sent the original set back and they gave me a new set, sent that one back and they gave me another complete set. 6 of the last set have failed now so I'm done with em.
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I believe I have the same issue with a set of Comp retrofit hyd rollers in my 340.
I also would like to replace them with solid rollers, but, I just cant wrap my head around running solid rollers on a hydraulic grind. I know alot of people do it successfully yet I have spoke with some cam producers that say this practice will cause problems. Comp said it's OK just tighten up the lash.
I am pissed/confused/concerned and cant make up my mind.
 
It may also be an indication that the lifter bores are worn. It's more common than most think and the clearance between the bore and lifter body is very critical for the hydro lifters to work right.
 
moper said:
It may also be an indication that the lifter bores are worn. It's more common than most think and the clearance between the bore and lifter body is very critical for the hydro lifters to work right.
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In my case, all the lifter bores were checked before assembly by the engine builder and found to be
" well within specification".
I have learned my lesson I will never again use any type of roller lifter for a street application.
 
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moper said:
It may also be an indication that the lifter bores are worn. It's more common than most think and the clearance between the bore and lifter body is very critical for the hydro lifters to work right.
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I thought about leaking down in the bores too. When I had it apart I ran the oil pump with my makita to look at just that. The lifters that were at full lift did have more oil around the top of the lifter than the ones on base circle... figured that might be normal cause of the proximity of the lifter oil band to the stupid counter bore at the lifter bore top. At the worst counter bore I have about .105 thou before the oil band is exposed.

I did look at that leakage in my 318 as well. That one has worn bores. Oil flowed out of the bores on the 318 much more than on this 360 block. The 318 has hyd flat tappets and runs great with an XE268H. By comparison I tend to want to believe the 360's lifter bores might be okay...I can't see the bottom of the bores but I did see some oil on the lobes while I was running the makita. If side load from pushrod angle is a problem with hyd rollers it certainly would eventually egg the lifter bore.
 
lomchivok said:
I thought about leaking down in the bores too. When I had it apart I ran the oil pump with my makita to look at just that. The lifters that were at full lift did have more oil around the top of the lifter than the ones on base circle... figured that might be normal cause of the proximity of the lifter oil band to the stupid counter bore at the lifter bore top. At the worst counter bore I have about .105 thou before the oil band is exposed.

I did look at that leakage in my 318 as well. That one has worn bores. Oil flowed out of the bores on the 318 much more than on this 360 block. The 318 has hyd flat tappets and runs great with an XE268H. By comparison I tend to want to believe the 360's lifter bores might be okay...I can't see the bottom of the bores but I did see some oil on the lobes while I was running the makita. If side load from pushrod angle is a problem with hyd rollers it certainly would eventually egg the lifter bore.
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I hear what your saying.
Any engine could have very loose lifter bores, but, the hyd rollers should still stay pumped up.
Once the oil becomes trapped in the lifter it should not bleed off regardless how loose the bore fit.
In my case the bastards bleed off and rattle.
Oil pressure is 28 -30 psi at hot idle, 60 psi cruzn speed
 
512Stroker said:
In my case the bastards bleed off and rattle.
Oil pressure is 28 -30 psi at hot idle, 60 psi cruzn speed
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Mine too...Oil pressure is about the same too. 30@hot idle (900 rpm) in gear and right up to 60 just off idle...maybe 1500 r's and 70 at cruise. Edit: It's gonna be a few weeks before I dig into it...gotta put a new beefy 727 in first. I'll post my results when I get into it.
 
Idk, my morells have worked fine for me.
I look for city trucks to pull them from.
Geometry kits from b3racing would lighten the angular load at the rocker side just a hair.

The hyd rollers I've done have been in late roller blocks and used factory spider and factory roller lifters and work great!

I would never use hyd roller spring pressures with solid roller lifters... because I like to keep the valves from being hit by pistons.
 
lomchivok said:
Going to replace my failing hyd roller lifters with crane solid rollers on my Hughes SER3438ALN-10 hyd roller cam. Duration@ .050 is 234/238 and 536/540 lift. My heads have beehives, the IMM indy SB Mopar Heads. Seat pressure is about 140 seat psi, and depending on lift of the cam, anywhere from 300-335 open psi.
Wondering if the ramps on the hyd roller cam will let me get away with running the springs installed on the heads now. Will upgrade if absolutely necessary. 408 LA rev limiter set @ 5500.
Click to expand...
Did your hydraulic roller to Mechanical roller swap work?
 
512Stroker said:
In my case, all the lifter bores were checked before assembly by the engine builder and found to be
" well within specification".
I have learned my lesson I will never again use any type of roller lifter for a street application.
Click to expand...

I've never had any issues with a roller lifter or cam. I recommend solid roller to those who have had issues with hyd retro in non roller blocks.
Maybe this is the diff...
Unless it came with a hyd roller... I wont use one. I will only build with a hyd roller if it's a factory roller block and the factory hyd lifters and spider are used. Period.
 
Thanks for posting Dart from Crower- always informative
prove me wron on this guys- just IMHO here
IMHO all retro kits come from the same MFG
lifters in an OEM roller block are different and may I say maybe better
all retro lifters are small wheel
I usually use the c.a. 815 rollers vs the .750 roller lifters and am asking Dart19666 which might be better in this case
given that you check with the cm vendor for lift rates
you do not want to be banging any roller on a fast rising ramp
If you do I have a broom and dustpan in classified
I do know that a cam designed for .815 rollers works best with those rollers and better than a .750 cam and roller
 
Wyrmrider said:
Thanks for posting Dart from Crower- always informative
prove me wron on this guys- just IMHO here
IMHO all retro kits come from the same MFG
lifters in an OEM roller block are different and may I say maybe better
all retro lifters are small wheel
I usually use the c.a. 815 rollers vs the .750 roller lifters and am asking Dart19666 which might be better in this case
given that you check with the cm vendor for lift rates
you do not want to be banging any roller on a fast rising ramp
If you do I have a broom and dustpan in classified
I do know that a cam designed for .815 rollers works best with those rollers and better than a .750 cam and roller
Click to expand...

ok here is the dirt when it comes to a Hydraulic roller wheel diameter is not as important because you can open them so fast. Also the average effective max rpm is about 6500 rpm in short bursts. Now on to solid roller the bigger the wheel the better for ramp rates and longevity.
 
I've been kicking around the idea of switching to solid roller lifters on my hydraulic cam in my 03 5.9 block (408).
Got the IMM 2.02 heads with beehive springs. Cam is a custom CompCam with 236/248 duration and 571/584 lift with 112LSA..blower cam. Not sure if I would need to change the springs for higher pressure ones upon using solid lifters. From my understanding I would need to.... but wouldn't be exactly sure what spring pressure I would need.

Sometimes think I hear a little rattle of the hydro lifter upon start up. Has adjustable rockers on it. Tightened up the preload a little but still does it.

The Hughes retro roller lifters has been working good in my LA 360. Good oil pressure and no ticking. However at first I had a lifter not pumping up in which after taking the lifter apart the manufacture forgot machine around a small hole inside the lifter.

Hughes "retro fit" lifter not pumping up!
 
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This next info is from Crower, everyone else has a different idea but this is what we do. Minimum spring pressures for a street solid roller are 240# seat and 675# over the nose. That is for a street roller cam with average Velocity ramps. For race applications we have different minimum of 250# seat and 750# over the nose.
 
dart19666 said:
This next info is from Crower, everyone else has a different idea but this is what we do. Minimum spring pressures for a street solid roller are 240# seat and 675# over the nose. That is for a street roller cam with average Velocity ramps. For race applications we have different minimum of 250# seat and 750# over the nose.
Click to expand...
Yep, Different strokes for different folks
Pressures are grind dependent and imo
"Street" means different things to different people. Repeat, You can run much less depending on the grind.
 
mullinax95 said:
I've been kicking around the idea of switching to solid roller lifters in my 03 5.9 block (408).
Got the IMM 2.02 heads with beehive springs. Cam is a custom CompCam with 236/248 duration and 571/584 lift with 112LSA..blower cam. Not sure if I would need to change the springs for higher pressure ones upon using solid lifters. From my understanding I would need to.... but wouldn't be exactly sure what spring pressure I would need.

Sometimes think I hear a little rattle of the hydro lifter upon start up. Has adjustable rockers on it. Tightened up the preload a little but still does it.

The Hughes retro roller lifters has been working good in my LA 360. Good oil pressure and no ticking. However at first I had a lifter not pumping up in which after taking the lifter apart the manufacture forgot machine around a small hole inside the lifter.

Hughes "retro fit" lifter not pumping up!
Click to expand...
200-220 seat and 425 or so open would be fine. Imo ask the guy who ground the cam to be certain.
 
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