Spring Pressures. Solid roller lifter on a hyd roller cam.

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MOPAROFFICIAL said:
Yep, Different strokes for different folks
Pressures are grind dependent and imo
"Street" means different things to different people. Repeat, You can run much less depending on the grind.
Click to expand...

My "street" engine sounds like a race engine....lol
However aren't there formulas that can be used to determine spring rate?

I noticed on IMM Engine website that they offer a spring upgrade kit for solid cams. They state that it's a double spring package..... so I doubt the single beehive spring (for hydraulic cams) is sufficient for solid lifters. Or is it?
 
MOPAROFFICIAL said:
Yep, Different strokes for different folks
Pressures are grind dependent and imo
"Street" means different things to different people. Repeat, You can run much less depending on the grind.
Click to expand...

These are not opinions these are facts straight from our Spinton and dyno info from 50+ years of testing. We "Crower" have tested many different cam profiles from our catalog and other manufactures, the end result is you WILL do more damage with less spring pressure than you will ever do with the minimums I listed above.
 
MOPAROFFICIAL said:
200-220 seat and 425 or so open would be fine. Imo ask the guy who ground the cam to be certain.
Click to expand...

I agree since I design these profiles for a living These pressure above would beat the crap out of most and all solid roller profiles above 5,500rpm. The roller would simply just lose contact with the cam over the nose and slam down on the base circle. It will work "Run" but for how long. The top two cars at this years rocky mountain race week had Crower cam, lifters, rockers and spring set up from me. Both running well over the minimums I listed above.
 
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What Dart says
and remember to contact your camgrinder for info on the design of thier HR ramps- (who did they copy or did they design their own)
agree on the HR as they are all small roller in any case AFIK
now come solid rollers are designed for tight lash and some like the 30-30 Duntov and the .028 MP lash series have "high ramps"
which I have tried to tight lash but did not work too well
Crower and Isky AFIK(and a very few thers) use a different (better IMHO) hyd lifter than most
Crower may have a spintron
lots of camgrinders don't and have no idea what their copy cat profiles actually require
don't be their beta tester
 
dart19666 said:
These are not opinions these are facts straight from our Spinton and dyno info from 50+ years of testing. We "Crower" have tested many different cam profiles from our catalog and other manufactures, the end result is you WILL do more damage with less spring pressure than you will ever do with the minimums I listed above.
Click to expand...
I agree, you damage more with less and the kind that sneaks up.... Spring pads dug in, valves/seats hammered, bent pushrods...then bending/breaking valves.
With too much...all you do is destroy lobes,wheels, rockers...send metal everywhere. It's all bad to various degrees.
Imo That statment swings both ways.

You need the psi you state when the lobes are aggressive. If you take a slightly tweaked 'hyd roller grind' for a solid roller lifter..m then you need less psi. Generally speaking with your product..you're correct. Not debating the research your company has done and its findings with what it tested. It just really depends on the grind and you cant deny that .
 
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dart19666 said:
I agree since I design these profiles for a living These pressure above would beat the crap out of most and all solid roller profiles above 5,500rpm. The roller would simply just lose contact with the cam over the nose and slam down on the base circle. I will work "Run" but for how long. The top two cars at this years rocky mountain race week had Crower cam, lifters, rockers and spring set up from me. Both running well over the minimums I listed above.
Click to expand...
It would skip across the lobe ...on an aggressive solid roller...not a hyd profile though.
I run a Doug Herbert 575 251@.050 108
K motion K800 springs 225/485 , morel street .750 wheel roller lifters stay put. Maybe at 7200+ they wouldn't....but I dont run it there.
Imo 675 is a TON. But if you're talking about .640-.720 lift... I agree with that.
'Enough' is what you want, 'too much' is just a drag.
Again, it depends on the grind and its wheel.
Crower likes a lot. Got it. I'll run whatever the cam grinder tells me, so if I ever run a crower... I will follow your recommendation and expect you to have the parts to make that happen. :)
 
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MOPAROFFICIAL said:
I agree, you damage more with less and the kind that sneaks up.... Spring pads dug in, valves/seats hammered, bent pushrods...then bending/breaking valves.
With too much...all you do is destroy lobes,wheels, rockers...send metal everywhere. It's all bad to various degrees.
Imo That statment swings both ways.

You need the psi you state when the lobes are aggressive. If you take a slightly tweaked 'hyd roller grind' for a solid roller lifter..m then you need less psi. Generally speaking with your product..you're correct. Not debating the research your company has done and its findings with what it tested. It just really depends on the grind and you cant deny that .
Click to expand...

No The statement does not swing both ways, I am not debating either I am just tell you facts. You do not destroy lobes from too much because solid roller cams have a Rc "Rockwell rating " rating above 63. Also no such thing as a slightly tweaked Hydraulic roller into a solid roller. Because Hydraulic rollers are measured at 0.005" for advertised and then at 0.050", where a solid advertised is at 0.020" and then at 0.050". If you run Crower lifters, cam, rockers, and springs It will never be bad to various degrees it will only be bad with too light ONLY. It does depend on the grind 100% I agree with that but separately from Hydraulic to solid roller. This is a subject that I talk alot about to people who go to Cam Place A-B break stuff and then come to us to make it work, and survive. We sponsor dragweek, rocky mountain, so on and so on real world torture tests. Once again by no means am I picking on you I just want all my mopar people to know the facts hence the reason why I am on this site.
 
MOPAROFFICIAL said:
It would skip across the lobe ...on an aggressive solid roller...not a hyd profile though.
I run a Doug Herbert 575 251@.050 108
K motion K800 springs 225/485 , morel street .750 wheel roller lifters stay put. Maybe at 7200+ they wouldn't....but I dont run it there.
Imo 675 is a TON. But if you're talking about .640-.720 lift... I agree with that.
'Enough' is what you want, 'too much' is just a drag.
Again, it depends on the grind and its wheel.
Crower likes a lot. Got it. I'll run whatever the cam grinder tells me, so if I ever run a crower... I will follow your recommendation and expect you to have the parts to make that happen. :)
Click to expand...

Lift is not the reason for more pressure. It is based on all the derivatives or the curve. Velocity, Acceleration, Jerk, and Snap.
 
mullinax95 said:
My "street" engine sounds like a race engine....lol
However aren't there formulas that can be used to determine spring rate?

I noticed on IMM Engine website that they offer a spring upgrade kit for solid cams. They state that it's a double spring package..... so I doubt the single beehive spring (for hydraulic cams) is sufficient for solid lifters. Or is it?
Click to expand...

I would not say formulas so mush as a combo if the Velocity of the lobe combined with the rocker ratio, and valve train weights. In simple terms a higher rocker arm ratio gives you a better mechanical advantage for the back side of the lobe. I have 1000's of lobe profiles that have been tested with different rocker arm ratios and different valve train weights. Believe me if I could make an Algorithm for this very thing it would be a game changer. You can in box me on my thoughts and I will be straight with you if it is good or a bad set up. I work with IMM engines and 90% of all the top engine builders in the world doing this very thing IE. Lobe profile to spring pressure set-up.
 
dart19666 said:
I would not say formulas so mush as a combo if the Velocity of the lobe combined with the rocker ratio, and valve train weights. In simple terms a higher rocker arm ratio gives you a better mechanical advantage for the back side of the lobe. I have 1000's of lobe profiles that have been tested with different rocker arm ratios and different valve train weights. Believe me if I could make an Algorithm for this very thing it would be a game changer. You can in box me on my thoughts and I will be straight with you if it is good or a bad set up. I work with IMM engines and 90% of all the top engine builders in the world doing this very thing IE. Lobe profile to spring pressure set-up.
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Does Crower have a spintron or do you rent time on one from time to time?

I've been screaming for years about guys letting spring pressures drop. It's a parts killer. I've seen valve locks cracked into mutineers pieces, fretting of the lock and retainer, lock grooves beat senseless, seats beat down, valve faces coined...you know what I'm say. And that's almost always traceable to low spring load.
 
joec said:
I have done this several times. Kept spring pressures the same as hyd roller. Lash on alum heads 002 int 004 exh cold. Steel heads 006 int 008 exh cold. Have always seen a slight increase in hp with this.
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Aluminum expands more than cast iron, ur figures are wrong !
 
yellow rose said:
Does Crower have a spintron or do you rent time on one from time to time?

I've been screaming for years about guys letting spring pressures drop. It's a parts killer. I've seen valve locks cracked into mutineers pieces, fretting of the lock and retainer, lock grooves beat senseless, seats beat down, valve faces coined...you know what I'm say. And that's almost always traceable to low spring load.
Click to expand...

Its all about the grind.
Some dont need 675-700+ open, some do.
Every cam company under the sun have their own required spring pressures to live according to them. Would love to hear from them as well... that would be interesting ...but look in your catalogs at the rec springs for fun.
 
MOPAROFFICIAL said:
Its all about the grind.
Some dont need 675-700+ open, some do.
Every cam company under the sun have their own required spring pressures to live according to them. Would love to hear from them as well... that would be interesting ...but look in your catalogs at the rec springs for fun.
Click to expand...


Here the fact. Years ago, it was criminal to say a cam needed more spring load. They were called parts breakers and they got a bad reputation.

The issue was the same. It takes spring load to keep all that together. I almost never car what the cam grinder calls for on springs. Almost never. I've seen more broken **** from junk springs with the wrong rate and/or not enough pressure to know.

I send out hydraulic rollers with solid lifters at no less that 220 on the seat, and would rather see 240.

Any solid roller doesn't get less than 300 on the seat. Ever. That means you have to have your **** together. You can't run 3/8 pushrods. You can't have rocker gear that was junk in 1990. You have to use quality locks and retainers.

What the cam grinders says means little to me. I remember being at a divisional race and a friend of my dad had his Comp car there. Went over to meet him as I never met him. He was lashing the valves. Had three different color rockers on there.

So I asked him why the different rockers. He said when the springs go below 300 pound on the seat, it kills a rocker. So we try and go in at 325/330 and shim them once. Once they hit 310-315 I replace the spring.

At that time, Edelbrock was the ONLY one selling springs with that rate and load. Soon, a company called Addco came along and you could buy springs that went in at 2.00 with 300 on the seat and 2.100 at 320. That had to be the very late 1980's or maybe, 1990.

So you are only almost 30 years behind.
 
yellow rose said:
Here the fact. Years ago, it was criminal to say a cam needed more spring load. They were called parts breakers and they got a bad reputation.

The issue was the same. It takes spring load to keep all that together. I almost never car what the cam grinder calls for on springs. Almost never. I've seen more broken **** from junk springs with the wrong rate and/or not enough pressure to know.

I send out hydraulic rollers with solid lifters at no less that 220 on the seat, and would rather see 240.

Any solid roller doesn't get less than 300 on the seat. Ever. That means you have to have your **** together. You can't run 3/8 pushrods. You can't have rocker gear that was junk in 1990. You have to use quality locks and retainers.

What the cam grinders says means little to me. I remember being at a divisional race and a friend of my dad had his Comp car there. Went over to meet him as I never met him. He was lashing the valves. Had three different color rockers on there.

So I asked him why the different rockers. He said when the springs go below 300 pound on the seat, it kills a rocker. So we try and go in at 325/330 and shim them once. Once they hit 310-315 I replace the spring.

At that time, Edelbrock was the ONLY one selling springs with that rate and load. Soon, a company called Addco came along and you could buy springs that went in at 2.00 with 300 on the seat and 2.100 at 320. That had to be the very late 1980's or maybe, 1990.

So you are only almost 30 years behind.
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What diameter was the spring 300lb @2.00 seat?
 
512Stroker said:
Did your hydraulic roller to Mechanical roller swap work?
Click to expand...
Ya know, I'm about to go nuts here. Was going to dig in when the 727 was done. 2 transmissions later...... The first one was done by recommendation from a friend. Well, that trans was done in a shop with a dirt floor by a guy who had no idea. Delivered it to my house with his wife who followed him here ...said it's done and happily drove away with my $1400. Took it out for a drive...it's slipping...oh, and he had my transmission in his shop from June to January. After a week of no contact finally he responded...bring it back and I'll send it to Everett to my dad's shop and he'll fix it....Nope...it took me 8 months to get a POS back.
A high school friend has a transmission shop and has done work for me in the past. Should have taken it there first. He found the pressures were not set and were way low. I put 30 miles on it and the clutches were burned...I wasn't hard on it either. Once I was sure it was slippage and not converter or shift kit I stopped driving it. I paid for a trans-go shift kit...it wasn't installed. The Case was warped and servos were sticking. 2 snap rings in the tail shaft were muffed, 1 in the end and 1 forward of the rear support bearing ...I think that's where it was ...was gone and the shaft was chewed. Found out later this trans was in a fire.
Wayne's Car Care my high School friend had a 727 with a cracked case but newer billet internals from a desert race truck that upgraded to a different trans. Wayne also found me a good case put all the billet stuff in and a manual fwd shift valve body and a new TSC 3200 stall converter. Great transmission. Shifts too hard on the 2/3 shift. The nose drops at the shift and damn near shakes the dash out of it's hole..1/2 shift is great. Anyway, it's back in Wayne's shop now to soften up the 2/3 shift. That one cost me $3900 all said and done but is stout mo fo.
So $5300, 2 transmissions and a year later it's still in the shop getting the fine tune work done as part of the original $3900 cost.
As for the lifter swap, hasn't happened yet. I'm on the fence about the Crane 69515-16 solids. I want pressure fed bushed rollers but haven't decided on which ones. May not do it at all if I find the lifter bores egged when I take it apart. If that's the case I may just pull it and run the beefy 318 till I get the factory roller motor done.
 
lomchivok said:
Ya know, I'm about to go nuts here. Was going to dig in when the 727 was done. 2 transmissions later...... The first one was done by recommendation from a friend. Well, that trans was done in a shop with a dirt floor by a guy who had no idea. Delivered it to my house with his wife who followed him here ...said it's done and happily drove away with my $1400. Took it out for a drive...it's slipping...oh, and he had my transmission in his shop from June to January. After a week of no contact finally he responded...bring it back and I'll send it to Everett to my dad's shop and he'll fix it....Nope...it took me 8 months to get a POS back.
A high school friend has a transmission shop and has done work for me in the past. Should have taken it there first. He found the pressures were not set and were way low. I put 30 miles on it and the clutches were burned...I wasn't hard on it either. Once I was sure it was slippage and not converter or shift kit I stopped driving it. I paid for a trans-go shift kit...it wasn't installed. The Case was warped and servos were sticking. 2 snap rings in the tail shaft were muffed, 1 in the end and 1 forward of the rear support bearing ...I think that's where it was ...was gone and the shaft was chewed. Found out later this trans was in a fire.
Wayne's Car Care my high School friend had a 727 with a cracked case but newer billet internals from a desert race truck that upgraded to a different trans. Wayne also found me a good case put all the billet stuff in and a manual fwd shift valve body and a new TSC 3200 stall converter. Great transmission. Shifts too hard on the 2/3 shift. The nose drops at the shift and damn near shakes the dash out of it's hole..1/2 shift is great. Anyway, it's back in Wayne's shop now to soften up the 2/3 shift. That one cost me $3900 all said and done but is stout mo fo.
So $5300, 2 transmissions and a year later it's still in the shop getting the fine tune work done as part of the original $3900 cost.
As for the lifter swap, hasn't happened yet. I'm on the fence about the Crane 69515-16 solids. I want pressure fed bushed rollers but haven't decided on which ones. May not do it at all if I find the lifter bores egged when I take it apart. If that's the case I may just pull it and run the beefy 318 till I get the factory roller motor done.
Click to expand...



Damn. Seems to me this whole thing has been a night mare. Didn't you buy an engine from someone down in Oregon and have issues with that too?? Damn. That's a bummer when you start spending that kind of cash and get screwed.
 
lomchivok said:
Ya know, I'm about to go nuts here. Was going to dig in when the 727 was done. 2 transmissions later...... The first one was done by recommendation from a friend. Well, that trans was done in a shop with a dirt floor by a guy who had no idea. Delivered it to my house with his wife who followed him here ...said it's done and happily drove away with my $1400. Took it out for a drive...it's slipping...oh, and he had my transmission in his shop from June to January. After a week of no contact finally he responded...bring it back and I'll send it to Everett to my dad's shop and he'll fix it....Nope...it took me 8 months to get a POS back.
A high school friend has a transmission shop and has done work for me in the past. Should have taken it there first. He found the pressures were not set and were way low. I put 30 miles on it and the clutches were burned...I wasn't hard on it either. Once I was sure it was slippage and not converter or shift kit I stopped driving it. I paid for a trans-go shift kit...it wasn't installed. The Case was warped and servos were sticking. 2 snap rings in the tail shaft were muffed, 1 in the end and 1 forward of the rear support bearing ...I think that's where it was ...was gone and the shaft was chewed. Found out later this trans was in a fire.
Wayne's Car Care my high School friend had a 727 with a cracked case but newer billet internals from a desert race truck that upgraded to a different trans. Wayne also found me a good case put all the billet stuff in and a manual fwd shift valve body and a new TSC 3200 stall converter. Great transmission. Shifts too hard on the 2/3 shift. The nose drops at the shift and damn near shakes the dash out of it's hole..1/2 shift is great. Anyway, it's back in Wayne's shop now to soften up the 2/3 shift. That one cost me $3900 all said and done but is stout mo fo.
So $5300, 2 transmissions and a year later it's still in the shop getting the fine tune work done as part of the original $3900 cost.
As for the lifter swap, hasn't happened yet. I'm on the fence about the Crane 69515-16 solids. I want pressure fed bushed rollers but haven't decided on which ones. May not do it at all if I find the lifter bores egged when I take it apart. If that's the case I may just pull it and run the beefy 318 till I get the factory roller motor done.
Click to expand...
Sorry to here you have the tranny Blues.
I too have had them in the past.
Now I just bite the bullet and buy one of the name brand trans and hope for the best, it is a lot less painful.
Keep us up to date when/if you do your lifter swap, inquiring minds want to know.
This has turned out to be a great thread
Happy 4th of July
 
yellow rose said:
Damn. Seems to me this whole thing has been a night mare. Didn't you buy an engine from someone down in Oregon and have issues with that too?? Damn. That's a bummer when you start spending that kind of cash and get screwed.
Click to expand...
Yup, that one is still sitting in the corner with a screwed up deck.
 
Unfortunately I too am having trouble with a retro hydraulic roller lifter 340. Seems one is not holding pressure. Took all 16 out to clean and inspect, and found the suspect pair can be depressed very easily with a push rod.. while the rest seem extremely tight. I think I am going to roll the dice and order a pair of two and see what happens. I thought about placing the lifter in oil while sitting on a V-block and using z drill press with a push rod to pump it up and see if it holds pressure. I might even put a scale under it and see what pound force is...
 
Woodie said:
Unfortunately I too am having trouble with a retro hydraulic roller lifter 340. Seems one is not holding pressure. Took all 16 out to clean and inspect, and found the suspect pair can be depressed very easily with a push rod.. while the rest seem extremely tight. I think I am going to roll the dice and order a pair of two and see what happens. I thought about placing the lifter in oil while sitting on a V-block and using z drill press with a push rod to pump it up and see if it holds pressure. I might even put a scale under it and see what pound force is...
Click to expand...
I don't know if lifter geometry could be corrected with bushing the bores to correct or lessen the push rod angle, I would think it could?? If I was to do it again the bores would be bushed. I wonder if the geometry was changed on the magnum and roller LA blocks or if just a taller boss/bore for the lifter reduced lifter failure
 
yellow rose said:
1.625 IIRC. I also ran some springs that were 1.650. Those went in at 2.100 as I screwed up. I should have stayed at 2.000 but thought I'd get more lift than I did.
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lomchivok said:
Ya know, I'm about to go nuts here. Was going to dig in when the 727 was done. 2 transmissions later...... The first one was done by recommendation from a friend. Well, that trans was done in a shop with a dirt floor by a guy who had no idea. Delivered it to my house with his wife who followed him here ...said it's done and happily drove away with my $1400. Took it out for a drive...it's slipping...oh, and he had my transmission in his shop from June to January. After a week of no contact finally he responded...bring it back and I'll send it to Everett to my dad's shop and he'll fix it....Nope...it took me 8 months to get a POS back.
A high school friend has a transmission shop and has done work for me in the past. Should have taken it there first. He found the pressures were not set and were way low. I put 30 miles on it and the clutches were burned...I wasn't hard on it either. Once I was sure it was slippage and not converter or shift kit I stopped driving it. I paid for a trans-go shift kit...it wasn't installed. The Case was warped and servos were sticking. 2 snap rings in the tail shaft were muffed, 1 in the end and 1 forward of the rear support bearing ...I think that's where it was ...was gone and the shaft was chewed. Found out later this trans was in a fire.
Wayne's Car Care my high School friend had a 727 with a cracked case but newer billet internals from a desert race truck that upgraded to a different trans. Wayne also found me a good case put all the billet stuff in and a manual fwd shift valve body and a new TSC 3200 stall converter. Great transmission. Shifts too hard on the 2/3 shift. The nose drops at the shift and damn near shakes the dash out of it's hole..1/2 shift is great. Anyway, it's back in Wayne's shop now to soften up the 2/3 shift. That one cost me $3900 all said and done but is stout mo fo.
So $5300, 2 transmissions and a year later it's still in the shop getting the fine tune work done as part of the original $3900 cost.
As for the lifter swap, hasn't happened yet. I'm on the fence about the Crane 69515-16 solids. I want pressure fed bushed rollers but haven't decided on which ones. May not do it at all if I find the lifter bores egged when I take it apart. If that's the case I may just pull it and run the beefy 318 till I get the factory roller motor done.
Click to expand...
Holy ****.
You could have done it yourself and been better off. How much in parts, if you dont mind me asking for just the one that works?
 
Woodie said:
Unfortunately I too am having trouble with a retro hydraulic roller lifter 340. Seems one is not holding pressure. Took all 16 out to clean and inspect, and found the suspect pair can be depressed very easily with a push rod.. while the rest seem extremely tight. I think I am going to roll the dice and order a pair of two and see what happens. I thought about placing the lifter in oil while sitting on a V-block and using z drill press with a push rod to pump it up and see if it holds pressure. I might even put a scale under it and see what pound force is...
Click to expand...
Sounds like a plan please keep us all informed on your results.
Good luck
 
MOPAROFFICIAL said:
Holy ****.
You could have done it yourself and been better off. How much in parts, if you dont mind me asking for just the one that works?
Click to expand...
Reman Trans ASM $2500
Exchange case
Use customers tail shaft housing
Includes
A&A Valve body fwd pattern full manual
Large pump
billet input and hub
A&A Direct
A&A 5 pinion front planet & hub full brg
A&A 3 pinion R planet full brg with hub
727 HP
Bolt in rear ultra sprag/billet steel rear support full brg... SMR Specialty Parts
2"alto red line rigid band
alto red line frictions
alto black steels
sonnax super hold front servo
sonnax zero leak accum
sonnax rear servo
4.2:1 apply lever
deep sump pan
flex plate
plug kit
Easy access line pressure adjust
dust shield 42.90
freight for 2" alto red rigid band 22.00
hex bolts 9.53
trans fluid 91.00
1qt castrol transmax full syn atf 16.00
Pre reman trans diagnosis 141.00
remove and replace transmission 564.00
total 3682.67
the rest was the converter bought locally from a fellow racer/TCS employee I know in Langley BC from Mission Raceway BC.
 
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