318 budget build

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yellow rose said:
That is ground on a 110 lobe separation angle. I doubt that there was enough lobe on the core to make it so "lining up the dots" would pit the intake centerline at 106 if that's where Kenny wants it installed. So...that means you need to use an offset key, or a crank gear with multiple keyways.

This is why you always Always ALWAYS degree the cam.

I guess you can time of off the at .050 lifter rise of you have to. But it still needs to be checked. I thought Kenny used to put an ICL on the card but I don't see that on yours.
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Yellow rose should i be checking .50 lift with the dial indicator on the intake cam lobe off of the pushrod? or should i just pull the head and do it off the roller lifter? when degreeing the camshaft after TDC has been found
 
Slantsix64 said:
Yellow rose should i be checking .50 lift with the dial indicator on the intake cam lobe off of the pushrod? or should i just pull the head and do it off the roller lifter? when degreeing the camshaft after TDC has been found
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If the head is on I'd leave it on. No need to make work. Just make sure the dial indicator is in the same plane as the pushrod and go for it.

If you are using the at .050 lifter rise number, you can always go back and check the intake centerline when you are done.
 
WE took a quick look at it yesterday
Slant bought a new degree wheel and piston stop so we found TDC with a wire pointer
however using the .050 method he's off by maybe 15 degrees
I had no sleep the night before and did not check the crank gear, had a good night last night so will see if my eyes can see it today
I asked him to try the.050 down each side of the nose centerline method - not exact for an asymetrical cam but should be close enough
desired centerlines are on the cam card- nice cam card from Oregon
He's using my mag base dial indicator and is lining up the indicator on the pushrod correctly, learned that you have to push the lifter back down manually, hold the crank by the flywheel end etc
He was having his brother help him last night and called asking if the 15 degree overlap number had anything to do with it.
I told him it was coincidental
I have a couple of spare mag bases and am going to give him one- all he has to do is score the gauge
Slant is very meticulous and this is his first time not dot to dot.
Thanks for the help YR he really appreciates it.
 
I never use a piston stop to set TDC. You can get close, but I've seen too many guys miss with it.

I verify TDC by rolling the piston to .050 before TDC and take a reading off the wheel. Then go past TDC and read the .050 down number. They better be equal or you haven't found true TDC.

Most small blocks come out at about 11 degrees on both sides of TDC. If you have say 8 on one side and 14 on the other, you need to split the difference and check it again.

Once you KNOW you have TDC, then you can use .050 lifter rise or the intake centerline to degree the cam.

I prefer the intake centerline because the lifter bank angles can change the at .050 measurement and the ICL will always be what it is. You can have several different cams with the same at .050 timing that are totally different when it comes to ICL.

That said, I also NEVER try and find the exact center of the lobe by just running to the top of the lobe. You'll never be in the exact center of the lobe.

I use the lobe height minus .050 and take a reading at those numbers.

So, let's say we have a lobe with .400 lift. I zero the indicator on the base circle and run the lifter up to .350 on the opening side and read the wheel. Then go past max lift and when the dial indicator reads .350 on the closing side (which is only .050 nominally past max lift) and read the wheel again. Add them together and divide by 2 and you have the ICL.

That way, you know the exact center is between the two lift points and the center line is exactly where th card calls for.
 
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Slantsix64 said:
Yup, Jim is a very knowledgeable guy and as helped me a lot, there's nothing like hands on with someone who is full of knowledge, I'll try it again but if not I'm just going to man up take the head off and buy this tool Powerhouse Camshaft Lift Checking Tool, Cam Degreeing, Mopar (1113): Gauges and Gadgets: Valve Train Tools | Benchmark AZ. Also Ken at Oregon suggested the head must come off to get exact readings.
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You can do it without pulling the head. Like I said, make sure the dial indicator is parallel with the pushrod and lifter and do the degreeing. I've done dozens of them in the car with the heads on. You'd be surprised how many cars are under performers because they didn't degree the cam. Just take your time. If you get stuck, you can always call someone. I can walk you through it if you need help.

Just hate to see you do more work than need be.
 
Thanks YR
I verify TDC by rolling the piston to .050 before TDC and take a reading off the wheel.
Then go past TDC and read the .050 down number. They better be equal or you haven't found true TDC.

he has the heads on
as you say Piston stop is close but no ciigar



Most small blocks come out at about 11 degrees on both sides of TDC.
About what I would expect

If you have say 8 on one side and 14 on the other, you need to split the difference and check it again.
That's what he has been trying with his piston stop

I'll see if I can get up there later today
 
yellow rose said:
You can do it without pulling the head. Like I said, make sure the dial indicator is parallel with the pushrod and lifter and do the degreeing. I've done dozens of them in the car with the heads on. You'd be surprised how many cars are under performers because they didn't degree the cam. Just take your time. If you get stuck, you can always call someone. I can walk you through it if you need help.

Just hate to see you do more work than need be.
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Quick question, should i get the .050 lift off of the lifter edge or inside the push rod cup? The lifter is a roller type. Is going off the push rod inserted in the roller lifter an accurate reading?
 
Also can you put magnum head gaskets on a la block? Cause I think this la roller block has magnum head gaskets on it. The head gasket has the cut outs for the push rods never seen that before. Dumb question I guess
 
Slantsix64 said:
Quick question, should i get the .050 lift off of the lifter edge or inside the push rod cup? The lifter is a roller type. Is going off the push rod inserted in the roller lifter an accurate reading?
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Do it off the pushrod cup. It's too damn hard to keep the indicator on the edge of the lifter.

You don't need that tool either.

I have probably degreed 500 cams or more and oven ever used a tool like that. Spend your money on go fast stuff and not on needless tools.

Remind me again...is the head on or off. I'm fighting a nasty migraine for 3 days. If it doesn't amscra soon the old lady is making me go to the ER. Probably at gun point.

If she sees me on the computer, she may skip the ER and just shoot me.
 
yellow rose said:
Do it off the pushrod cup. It's too damn hard to keep the indicator on the edge of the lifter.

You don't need that tool either.

I have probably degreed 500 cams or more and oven ever used a tool like that. Spend your money on go fast stuff and not on needless tools.

Remind me again...is the head on or off. I'm fighting a nasty migraine for 3 days. If it doesn't amscra soon the old lady is making me go to the ER. Probably at gun point.

If she sees me on the computer, she may skip the ER and just shoot me.
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Hahhahhhah yeah do not want to get shot by the ol lady, Okay so do it off the pushrod cup, yup the head is on.
 
Slantsix64 said:
Quick question, should i get the .050 lift off of the lifter edge or inside the push rod cup? The lifter is a roller type. Is going off the push rod inserted in the roller lifter an accurate reading?
Click to expand...
Since you have hydraulic lifters, then you have to make sure that the lifter is not 'soft' if you measure off of the pushrod with the valvetrain assmebled..... I do not know if this is the case or not. 'Soft' means the lifter is partially collapsing as you open the valve because of spring pressure working back on the lifter's hydraulic piston/plunger.
 
nm9stheham said:
Since you have hydraulic lifters, then you have to make sure that the lifter is not 'soft' if you measure off of the pushrod with the valvetrain assmebled..... I do not know if this is the case or not. 'Soft' means the lifter is partially collapsing as you open the valve because of spring pressure working back on the lifter's hydraulic piston/plunger.
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Is this because the roller lifters tip is not pushed down completely because the rockers arms are not installed? Would a better way of doing this be with the rocker arms attached and checking .050 lift off the valve retainer when rotating the motor?
 
yellow rose said:
Do it off the pushrod cup. It's too damn hard to keep the indicator on the edge of the lifter.

You don't need that tool either.

I have probably degreed 500 cams or more and oven ever used a tool like that. Spend your money on go fast stuff and not on needless tools.

Remind me again...is the head on or off. I'm fighting a nasty migraine for 3 days. If it doesn't amscra soon the old lady is making me go to the ER. Probably at gun point.

If she sees me on the computer, she may skip the ER and just shoot me.
Click to expand...

Sucks having migraines doesn't it? You have my sympathy. And you're right, he can do it without the tool, but thats one "needless tool" as you say that makes life a lit easier. If you ever do use one, I promise you'll like it.
 
I think my problem is in the hydraulic roller lifter, I think there's play in the lifter when the push rod it not pressing it down with the rocker arm torque. So this is what I'm going to try, with the rocker arm assembled torqued to spec, true tdc found, I'm going to go off the tip of the valve retainer @ .050 lift record that number down, then .050 lift going the other direction record that number, add em divide by two see what I get.
 
Slantsix64 said:
I think my problem is in the hydraulic roller lifter, I think there's play in the lifter when the push rod it not pressing it down with the rocker arm torque. So this is what I'm going to try, with the rocker arm assembled torqued to spec, true tdc found, I'm going to go off the tip of the valve retainer @ .050 lift record that number down, then .050 lift going the other direction record that number, add em divide by two see what I get.
Click to expand...

That's where that tool comes in. It works without the lifter even being there.
 
Slant and I talked today
his lifter may be leaking down/ collapsing
I'm looking for a solid roller but so far SOL
the ball end tool would work
YR sorry about your migraine, just back from the doctor with allergies, pluggead ears and -yes- headache
His heads are on but he is getting repeatable tdc with his piston stop
He will pull heads if you think really better and there is a bridge in the kit he mentioned above
ever have a customer try a piston stop on a 440?
I'm out of town next week, back a couple of days then gone for two weeks so you guys help SlantSix please
I'm leaving him with my dial indicator and have a spare mag base I'm going to give him
first time and he really wants to get it right- I admire that
 
God damn it, looks like my pushrods are too short now cause of that camshaft regrind taking meat off of the cam lobes i can feel the rockers getting tight then loosen up when rotating the engine. Honestly just thinking about putting the stock camshaft back in setting the timing marks dot to dot and calling it a year. lol
 
ask oregon what change in base circle and measure yourself if you have a spare stock cam
you may need pushrods or 273 adj rockers and matching pushrods
 
Jim, the push rods have a hole in them to shot up oil to the rockers on the roller motors
 
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Slantsix64 said:
the push rods have a hole in them to shot up oil to the rockers on the roller motors
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The slant six does not oil like that. There is no oil that comes from the lifters.
 
After looking up i guess the Magnum push rods might work, they are almost 0.200 longer at 6.901 while mine are 6.707. I'll probably just order one and test it out.
 
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