I am really surprised this didn't kick up

-
crackedback said:
Cad/Cam has killed some people... Gordon Smiley in 1982 at Indy as an example. My grandfather fixed the front suspensions on those cars after the CAD/CAM got it wrong. Garbage in/garbage out.
Click to expand...
Wow. I have always been haunted by the Smiley/Savage crashes. What was incorrectly engineered on Smileys car?
 
72bluNblu said:
Oh totally, there was a lot going on there. Boeing and Aloha airlines both had part in it. The 737's were redesigned after that to improve strength in that area and the inspection schedules were modified. There were also claims that the cracks had been visible before the flight and ignored, obviously an inspection issue. It's not usually just the "one thing", but a chain of events.
Click to expand...
Usually 7 links in a chain of events leading to an accident. Break one link in the chain, it doesnt happen.
 
Out of my dodge charger book. This is advertising circa 1966 on chrysler unibody design. This is what they were going for. Was adequate for the time, but not anymore with modern drivelines, suspensions and tires. This is why subframe connectors improve upon what's already there. Contrary to Uncle Tony, Chrysler was actually trying to eliminate flex. I hope it's not too blurry to read. Watching his video the other day, I just shook my head and muttered ID10T.

20190714_154357.jpg


20190714_154404.jpg
 
Last edited:
fratzog lover said:
Wow. I have always been haunted by the Smiley/Savage crashes. What was incorrectly engineered on Smileys car?
Click to expand...
This I copied about the crash.
During an attempt to qualify for the Indy 500, Gordon Smiley, a cocky young driver from Texas, was determined to break 200mph or die trying. Several veteran drivers ... had warned him that he was in way over his head, driving all wrong for the Speedway. Smiley was a road racer and was used to counter-steering his car to avoid a crash if the rear wheels broke traction. While rushing to the car, I noticed small splotches of a peculiar gray substance marking a trail on the asphalt leading up to the driver. When I reached the car, I was shocked to see that Smiley's helmet was gone, along with the top of his skull. He had essentially been scalped by the debris fence. The material on the race track was most of his brain. His helmet, due to massive centrifugal force, was literally pulled from his head on impact ... I rode to the care center with the body. On the way in I performed a cursory examination and realized that nearly every bone in his body was shattered. He had a gaping wound in his side that looked as if he had been attacked by a large shark. I had never seen such trauma."[5]
 
SGBARRACUDA said:
This I copied about the crash.
During an attempt to qualify for the Indy 500, Gordon Smiley, a cocky young driver from Texas, was determined to break 200mph or die trying. Several veteran drivers ... had warned him that he was in way over his head, driving all wrong for the Speedway. Smiley was a road racer and was used to counter-steering his car to avoid a crash if the rear wheels broke traction. While rushing to the car, I noticed small splotches of a peculiar gray substance marking a trail on the asphalt leading up to the driver. When I reached the car, I was shocked to see that Smiley's helmet was gone, along with the top of his skull. He had essentially been scalped by the debris fence. The material on the race track was most of his brain. His helmet, due to massive centrifugal force, was literally pulled from his head on impact ... I rode to the care center with the body. On the way in I performed a cursory examination and realized that nearly every bone in his body was shattered. He had a gaping wound in his side that looked as if he had been attacked by a large shark. I had never seen such trauma."[5]
Click to expand...
Sounds more like it was driver error.
 
ir3333 said:
Lots of experience talking here.Wonder how many guys have welded as an occupation...and how many have picked up one end of a long piece of square tubing?Mild steel is soft and Even 10 gauge will bend quite easily.The design or geometry is very important and as i stated earlier a triangle or gusset can be very strong.
Click to expand...

Yeah metal flexes, they covered that in a couple of my materials science classes. Oh, and a couple of my structural engineering classes. And, oh yeah, I noticed it when I was involved with doing the FEA and when I did all the TIG welding for the FSAE projects I was a part of too.

You want to really notice it? Climb to the top of a 100' aerial ladder on a fire truck and see how much you're swaying around in the breeze at the top. Like a foot this way, a foot that way. Doesn't give you a warm fuzzy feeling, but the materials allow it. You don't have to weld as an occupation to understand what you're talking about.

retroron said:
Local Humor. Fresh out of high school, one step ahead of the police, I joined the USAF and spent 4 years working on mostly B-52's and its fair to say I have a great love for that aircraft. After the USAF I went to college and in what can only be described as strange twist of fate I wound up back in the Navy flying F-4s at the end of Viet Nam. I tell you this only because some truths were told to me, one of which is "beware of the clouds, mountains hide in them". The other one that I remember, when I'm down in the dumps and things aren't necessarily going my way, said by my RIO who was fond of saying (while on deck or land) "it ain't all that bad no-one's trying to kill us today". Kinda puts it in perspective don't ya think! And shoot, look at the pictures of the dart if you need more proof!
Click to expand...

Isn't that the truth!!!

My old man was a machinist's mate on the USS Forrestal, he went out on it after it returned to service from the McCain incident. He worked on F4's primarily. Got in some trouble because he had a few pilot's that would come to him and ask him to overclock the engines. Basically he would increase the fuel output to the turbines, allowing them to come closer to overspeed. Great for that little boost to make a difference outrunning a SAM. Not so great when the pilot would peg all the G-meters in the F4 and require a full overhaul of both engines.

moparmat2000 said:
Out of my dodge charger book. This is advertising circa 1966 on chrysler unibody design. This is what they were going for. Was adequate for the time, but not anymore with modern drivelines, suspensions and tires. This is why subframe connectors improve upon what's already there. Contrary to Uncle Tony, Chrysler was actually trying to eliminate flex. I hope it's not too blurry to read. Watching his video the other day, I just shook my head and muttered ID10T.

View attachment 1715363360

View attachment 1715363361
Click to expand...

It's all relative right?
 
My pops is a plank owner on the Forrestal CV59. Was on it during sea trials. First crew to be stationed on it.
 
SGBARRACUDA said:
This I copied about the crash.
During an attempt to qualify for the Indy 500, Gordon Smiley, a cocky young driver from Texas, was determined to break 200mph or die trying. Several veteran drivers ... had warned him that he was in way over his head, driving all wrong for the Speedway. Smiley was a road racer and was used to counter-steering his car to avoid a crash if the rear wheels broke traction. While rushing to the car, I noticed small splotches of a peculiar gray substance marking a trail on the asphalt leading up to the driver. When I reached the car, I was shocked to see that Smiley's helmet was gone, along with the top of his skull. He had essentially been scalped by the debris fence. The material on the race track was most of his brain. His helmet, due to massive centrifugal force, was literally pulled from his head on impact ... I rode to the care center with the body. On the way in I performed a cursory examination and realized that nearly every bone in his body was shattered. He had a gaping wound in his side that looked as if he had been attacked by a large shark. I had never seen such trauma."[5]
Click to expand...
His crash looked like the classic over correction, tires grab, boom, loss of direction.
 
ir3333 said:
Lots of experience talking here.Wonder how many guys have welded as an occupation...and how many have picked up one end of a long piece of square tubing?Mild steel is soft and Even 10 gauge will bend quite easily.The design or geometry is very important and as i stated earlier a triangle or gusset can be very strong.
Click to expand...
^^^^Main reason I used 1/8" wall 2" square tubing , fully welded .
 
You want to really notice it? Climb to the top of a 100' aerial ladder on a fire truck and see how much you're swaying around in the breeze at the top. Like a foot this way, a foot that way. Doesn't give you a warm fuzzy feeling, but the materials allow it. You don't have to weld as an occupation to understand what you're talking about.


After retiring from Tampa Fire Dept. with 33 years, I can attest to that first hand. Our old LTI 100 foot ladder truck when a 3" line was laid to the tip mount nozzle and the line was charged, the tip of the ladder would rise 11'! Yeah that was a E ticket ride!
 
retroron said:
Local Humor. Fresh out of high school, one step ahead of the police, I joined the USAF and spent 4 years working on mostly B-52's and its fair to say I have a great love for that aircraft. After the USAF I went to college and in what can only be described as strange twist of fate I wound up back in the Navy flying F-4s at the end of Viet Nam. I tell you this only because some truths were told to me, one of which is "beware of the clouds, mountains hide in them". The other one that I remember, when I'm down in the dumps and things aren't necessarily going my way, said by my RIO who was fond of saying (while on deck or land) "it ain't all that bad no-one's trying to kill us today". Kinda puts it in perspective don't ya think! And shoot, look at the pictures of the dart if you need more proof!
Click to expand...
52`s still rock ---well , to me !
Would have liked to see one in the 4th of July fly overs at the white house , all eight screaming about 95% , at low altitude------------
 
yes maybe only 4 ft long, but once added in between the existing front and rear sections you now have 2 14 footers.
..just sayin'
 
famous bob said:
52`s still rock ---well , to me !
Would have liked to see one in the 4th of July fly overs at the white house , all eight screaming about 95% , at low altitude------------
Click to expand...
Naw, a flight of 4, cleaned up, on water, down low, for the folks:thumbsup:
All of mine are gone (B's & F's) now . I can tell, you've been on the line when one has been turned up, going down the taxiway, screaming and groaning, whistling and creaking. I still remember. Man, that was a few years ago!!
 
ir3333 said:
yes maybe only 4 ft long, but once added in between the existing front and rear sections you now have 2 14 footers.
..just sayin'
Click to expand...
No ya dont, because your tying it into the floor structure, as well as the torsion bar crossmember, and the leaf spring FWD mounts
 
How long ago were full on dirt racing bikes (moto crossers) designed with 3-4 inches of suspension travel?:D
That is one example of how much has changed in engineering in the last 40-50 years.
I don't think that type of engineering was limited just to cars.

One thing I never liked about some of the retail connectors is that some are round or square.
Common sense will tell you a round or square tube will twist easier than a rectangle.
This was my thinking in using .085 wall 2x3 laying flat.
It also gave me a nice path for a fuel return.:D
 
retroron said:
Naw, a flight of 4, cleaned up, on water, down low, for the folks:thumbsup:
All of mine are gone (B's & F's) now . I can tell, you've been on the line when one has been turned up, going down the taxiway, screaming and groaning, whistling and creaking. I still remember. Man, that was a few years ago!!
Click to expand...

O R I was pretty neat , off the bomber alert pad , loaded , take off every 45 seconds . -------past gory tho .
 
Here ya go. Red is where its fully tied in and where it transitions to stock areas. I dunno how much more I can spoon feed ya, before ya get it.

Screenshot_20190714-164146_Gallery.jpg
 
TrailBeast said:
How long ago were full on dirt racing bikes (moto crossers) designed with 3-4 inches of suspension travel?:D
That is one example of how much has changed in engineering in the last 40-50 years.
I don't think that type of engineering was limited just to cars.

One thing I never liked about some of the retail connectors is that some are round or square.
Common sense will tell you a round or square tube will twist easier than a rectangle.
This was my thinking in using .085 wall 2x3 laying flat.
It also gave me a nice path for a fuel return.:D
Click to expand...

Not much , if any twist , welded all the way. Only reason a 2x3 rectangle would be stouter "to me" , is the extra metal in the 3"part . A rectangle isn`t as stout as a square if the amount of metal are the same , 'to me " anyway. ???
 
fratzog lover said:
Wow. I have always been haunted by the Smiley/Savage crashes. What was incorrectly engineered on Smileys car?
Click to expand...

Suspension geometry was wrong between upper/lower link and steering gear IIRC. All Cad/Cam at the time.

The geometry was the nexus of the crash as the cars were wicked ill handling from the start of the month. This was back when many of the top teams built or designed their own cars. Foyt, patrick, penske, etc.
 
famous bob said:
Tied in to the rocker too?? That would be stout !!

A pic is worth a 1000 words !
Click to expand...
Well Bob according to ir3333 my 4 foot 2x3 connectors are now 12 foot long and must flex a lot because they are tied to the framerails. Never mind the other crap they are attached to. Within the span including the floor
 
famous bob said:
O R I was pretty neat , off the bomber alert pad , loaded , take off every 45 seconds . -------past gory tho .
Click to expand...
Sounds like you're describing Castle AFB first day of the Cuban Missle Crisis and yeah I was at the end of stub row watching them go, just having finished gun preflight, just like you said.
 
You just said it. Remove everything but the frame and floor sections and that long wide platform will go up and down with ease.Tie in the body and all the other "crap" and you will have provided the necessary rigidity that only three dimensions can provide.I have built a lot of big beefy trailers and they really don't get rigid until you build and weld the sides and ends.Even then they will flex.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
-

Back
Top