Well It Leaks AGAIN!

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furrystump said:
It has weird patterns on the cylinder walls. To get it to 420 CI. The piston is almost a hockey puck! Not much skirt with gapless rings. Not to hijack. Didn’t smoke just a bunch of crankcase pressure.

View attachment 1715364964
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I've seen etching like that before. The oil company that made the oil he was running used a cheap additive package and it would etch metal like that. I'm betting if you look at the rings you'll see some etching there too. Plus some on the lifters and other places.
 
yellow rose said:
That oil usually doesn't do that. I know they make two different oils. One with a detergent package for street use and the other a race only oil that doesn't have that additive package in it.


Hmmmm.
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Race only, no detergent. Learn something every day THANKS!
 
Race only, didn’t use oil or smoke, just puked oil even with 26 inches of vacuum, which is to much. He pulled it apart to change cam timing and put it back together. He then had a BIG oil pan leak. Redid the pan gasket and it still leaked. Started thinking that it might be excessive crank case pressure. It had dismal leak down %’s. Took it apart expecting to see broken piston or rings, but nothing glaring. Machinist will check the bores for straightness and roundness. We’ll see.
 
furrystump said:
Race only, didn’t use oil or smoke, just puked oil even with 26 inches of vacuum, which is to much. He pulled it apart to change cam timing and put it back together. He then had a BIG oil pan leak. Redid the pan gasket and it still leaked. Started thinking that it might be excessive crank case pressure. It had dismal leak down %’s. Took it apart expecting to see broken piston or rings, but nothing glaring. Machinist will check the bores for straightness and roundness. We’ll see.
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I'll post it again because sometimes it's worth repeating.

There have been oils developed that use chlorine (same **** that's in Rapid Tap) in their additive package. I know there were two brands about 1999-2000ish that were doing it, probably more.

Redline was NOT one of them. At least they weren't doing it then. I haven't looked at Redline stuff in a while but that would seem out of character for them.

Chlorine in an engine oil can make the marks like you have in the picture. Those oils also look like world beaters on the dyno. Two, maybe three quick pulls and the power is up over most any other oil.

But, get some heat in the oil and watch the numbers drop like a rock. I've seen many roller lifters die because of using chlorinated oil. I'm hesitant to mention the one I know for sure. I'm not sure they are even still selling oil under their brand. But it was a well known name.

Oil and fuel testing is time consuming and very expensive. You can find power there, but you can also get fooled.

I only mention this because of the above pictures and unexplained leak down numbers. Those etching marks look like a chlorinated oil. It may not be the case, but that is what they look like. It will affect ring seal as well, as it etches the face of the ring.

Just one more thing to look at.
 
moper said:
Was a leakdown ever done?
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Yes, 3-4 cylinders were 60-70%. None were even close to acceptable. The short block was bought used and run for two years. Some of the leak down might be low tension rings, but he did it twice and it repeated the numbers. trying to ID which JE piston is in it, no number on the pin boss. It could have gas ports behind the rings which might effect the leak down. His reasoning for running the redline oil was it was supposed to free up some power. Going to map each bore and see how round/straight they are.
 
yellow rose said:
I'll post it again because sometimes it's worth repeating.

There have been oils developed that use chlorine (same **** that's in Rapid Tap) in their additive package. I know there were two brands about 1999-2000ish that were doing it, probably more.

Redline was NOT one of them. At least they weren't doing it then. I haven't looked at Redline stuff in a while but that would seem out of character for them.

Chlorine in an engine oil can make the marks like you have in the picture. Those oils also look like world beaters on the dyno. Two, maybe three quick pulls and the power is up over most any other oil.

But, get some heat in the oil and watch the numbers drop like a rock. I've seen many roller lifters die because of using chlorinated oil. I'm hesitant to mention the one I know for sure. I'm not sure they are even still selling oil under their brand. But it was a well known name.

Oil and fuel testing is time consuming and very expensive. You can find power there, but you can also get fooled.

I only mention this because of the above pictures and unexplained leak down numbers. Those etching marks look like a chlorinated oil. It may not be the case, but that is what they look like. It will affect ring seal as well, as it etches the face of the ring.

Just one more thing to look at.
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\
I`ll be the first to ask , what 2 companies were using the chlorine ?
You could save some heartache----------
 
famous bob said:
\
I`ll be the first to ask , what 2 companies were using the chlorine ?
You could save some heartache----------
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One was VP. I forget the actual nomenclature on the bottle, but it was VP branded oil. I never did find out who did the blending for VP.

The other one I can't remember. I'm not sure if VP still sells a racing oil. I guess I could look at their web site and see. Who knows...maybe they have sopped doing that by now, but I haven't heard of VP oil in years. I'm assuming they quit making it, or having it made as it were. I'm sure they don't have blending facilities, but I could be wrong about that.
 
Just looked it up and the are still doing oil. They show race only oils which isn't surprising. They are for cars without cats.

I may do some digging and see of they have updated the blend. I know it's a Group IV base (PAO) and they say not to use it with alcohol which makes sense.

I can't image with all that went on 20 years ago they didn't top the chlorine.

But I've been wrong before.
 
furrystump said:
Chasing a oil leak on a friends 400 chevy stroker. He thought is was bad oil pan gasket install. He re-did it. Still leaking. This thing has a star machine vacuum pump on it and it was STILL leaking! Leak down test was bad 60-70%. Pulled it apart nothing glaring, Off to the machinist to check the bores. Have you run a compression test on it?
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I built a hot 406 sbc, never found the oil leak on the drivers side , finally got pissed off and traded it for my basket case fish . I think some of those old 400 blocks may have had casting holes in them , that opened up enough to leak when hot . ????
 
yellow rose said:
One was VP. I forget the actual nomenclature on the bottle, but it was VP branded oil. I never did find out who did the blending for VP.

The other one I can't remember. I'm not sure if VP still sells a racing oil. I guess I could look at their web site and see. Who knows...maybe they have sopped doing that by now, but I haven't heard of VP oil in years. I'm assuming they quit making it, or having it made as it were. I'm sure they don't have blending facilities, but I could be wrong about that.
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Around here , all the oil sold in this area is blended at the old Sunoco refinery, they just blend the brand names additive to it . I had an uncle that used to be in that department. Phillips 66 used to be trucked, from Bartlesville , but quit due to shipping costs, so I`ve been told .. I used to run 20w40 troparctic in my new 68 fastback , back in the day , loved it .
 
Chorline ? Remeber that snake oil commercial , a drained slant and a drained 318 after running their snake oil through it... they drained and even poured dirt into them..
At idle of course they'll keep going a while...no load...solid cam especially, even hyd will idle clattering away.

It was chlorine based I remember. Cant be good.
 
Okay,
So I got the Wagner PCV valve and a open breather for the other valve cover. Esthetically it's not as pleasing to the eye but it should be an improvement over the old set-up. I ordered another Superformance Main seal along with their pan gasket. My question is, with a 490 horsepower 418 stroker what oil pump should I use? I currently have the Mopar Performance oil pump and at highway speeds it's sitting at 70 PSI. This seems excessive for a car that spends most of it's time on the street and I think that the high pressure and heat (coupled with what I think is an inadequate pcv system) caused the main seal to fail. My buddy Bob thinks I should run a stock pump but I am not sure if that is good enough for a stroker. I am also considering a high volume pump, what do you guys think? Thanks for your help.
 
My engine builder was adamant about not using a high volume pump on my stroker, claiming in this application it is unnecessary. We used a melling stock pump that was clearance checked, and shimmed as I recall. He told me the high volume pumps put unnecessary load on oil pump drive shaft, and proper clearances in engine will maintain good pressure with stock blueprinted pump. I run 05-30 royal purple oil. After everything is well heated on a highway drive mine settles in at 62-64 PSI, with a hot idle of 26-30.

It is my understanding that the high volume pumps actually do not pump higher volume, but increase the pressure. This is because the galleys in the engine cant actually accommodate higher volumes and so pressure backs up. So you end up unnecessarily putting more effort into turning the pump, with no benefit.

Again, this is what I have been told and I trust my engine builders words.

I do not believe this an oil pressure issue though. Regardless of pump you chose, many run high volume pumps with no leaking issues.
 
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superchargeddrt said:
Okay,
So I got the Wagner PCV valve and a open breather for the other valve cover. Esthetically it's not as pleasing to the eye but it should be an improvement over the old set-up. I ordered another Superformance Main seal along with their pan gasket. My question is, with a 490 horsepower 418 stroker what oil pump should I use? I currently have the Mopar Performance oil pump and at highway speeds it's sitting at 70 PSI. This seems excessive for a car that spends most of it's time on the street and I think that the high pressure and heat (coupled with what I think is an inadequate pcv system) caused the main seal to fail. My buddy Bob thinks I should run a stock pump but I am not sure if that is good enough for a stroker. I am also considering a high volume pump, what do you guys think? Thanks for your help.
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I use a HV pump. I run a 5w30 oil and carry almost 100 psi on cold start and about the same at a cruise.

I don't have any leaks. It's not a pump/pressure issue.

I hope the Wagner works for you. They are about the best way to spend a bit over a hundred bucks. They are very nice and work. But I'm doubting that is your issue.

Did you ever do a leak down test on this thing?
 
yellow rose said:
I use a HV pump. I run a 5w30 oil and carry almost 100 psi on cold start and about the same at a cruise.

I don't have any leaks. It's not a pump/pressure issue.

I hope the Wagner works for you. They are about the best way to spend a bit over a hundred bucks. They are very nice and work. But I'm doubting that is your issue.

Did you ever do a leak down test on this thing?
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I haven't done a leak down test but I will before I pull the engine. After reading a lot about this valve (from the manufacturer and reviews) I see that it has cured leaks for quite a few users. When the current seal started to leak (on my way to Carlise) I had my buddy Larry look at my exhaust and the oil is definitely not being burnt, it was coming from under the car. I stopped at a gas station (thinking it was my remote oil filter adapter leaking) and to my dismay it was coming from the rear of the engine in the middle. Now I know that it might be something like the oil sending unit or the pan gasket and I will certainly check those BEFORE I pull the engine. Now according to Wagner (and other sites) there used to be PCV valves designed specifically for each engine and they would transition from idle to cruise at a set vacuum but over the years PCV valve manufacturers have taken a "one size fits all" approach. Couple this with the fact that we change a lot of things on the engine and it doesn't have any of the characteristics of a stock engine any more. Here is a link to the testing that Wagner did on the valve. In the end I guess only time will tell. I will keep you informed.

High Performance PCV Valve Shootout – Flow Test Results – M/E Wagner Performance Products
 
jimjimjimmy said:
again oil pressure has nothing to do with your problem .
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That's the story I'm getting from everybody so I'm not going to change the pump. I am thinking that my "slave to fashion" ebay designer series PCV vavle and breather are NOT up to the task of ventilating the crankcase. That's why I am going to try the Wagner valve. I am thinking though that the damage is already done and that I will still have to replace the seal because it was leaking at idle. Thanks for your help!
 
cpearce said:
My engine builder was adamant about not using a high volume pump on my stroker, claiming in this application it is unnecessary. We used a melling stock pump that was clearance checked, and shimmed as I recall. He told me the high volume pumps put unnecessary load on oil pump drive shaft, and proper clearances in engine will maintain good pressure with stock blueprinted pump. I run 05-30 royal purple oil. After everything is well heated on a highway drive mine settles in at 62-64 PSI, with a hot idle of 26-30.

It is my understanding that the high volume pumps actually do not pump higher volume, but increase the pressure. This is because the galleys in the engine cant actually accommodate higher volumes and so pressure backs up. So you end up unnecessarily putting more effort into turning the pump, with no benefit.

Again, this is what I have been told and I trust my engine builders words.

I do not believe this an oil pressure issue though. Regardless of pump you chose, many run high volume pumps with no leaking issues.
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Thanks cpearce,
You've always been helpful to me throughout this whole engine build (along with many other FABO members). I think I am going to trust all of you again and save $100.00 and not change the pump. I will keep you in the loop and thanks again.
 
superchargeddrt said:
I haven't done a leak down test but I will before I pull the engine. After reading a lot about this valve (from the manufacturer and reviews) I see that it has cured leaks for quite a few users. When the current seal started to leak (on my way to Carlise) I had my buddy Larry look at my exhaust and the oil is definitely not being burnt, it was coming from under the car. I stopped at a gas station (thinking it was my remote oil filter adapter leaking) and to my dismay it was coming from the rear of the engine in the middle. Now I know that it might be something like the oil sending unit or the pan gasket and I will certainly check those BEFORE I pull the engine. Now according to Wagner (and other sites) there used to be PCV valves designed specifically for each engine and they would transition from idle to cruise at a set vacuum but over the years PCV valve manufacturers have taken a "one size fits all" approach. Couple this with the fact that we change a lot of things on the engine and it doesn't have any of the characteristics of a stock engine any more. Here is a link to the testing that Wagner did on the valve. In the end I guess only time will tell. I will keep you informed.

High Performance PCV Valve Shootout – Flow Test Results – M/E Wagner Performance Products
Click to expand...


I use a Wagner PCV and I love it. Don't use it like they want you to, but it still works.

I get that having a closed system is bad, but I'd rather see some leak down numbers.
 
To fit the rear main seal is really easy, but you need to do it with caution. You'll be removing materiel from the seal. If you go too far, you can't put it back on and then you'll need a new seal.

The issue is every time you line bore or line hone the mains, you make any hole in that line smaller. That includes the main seal groove. It has to get smaller to. That is what happens when you cut the main caps. You make the main bearing bore smaller, and then you hone it back to round and to size.

The issue is you don't go back and open up the seal bore. I suppose you could, but you'd need the blueprints from the factory to see the size and tolerance AND you'd need to use a boring bar AND have the correct tool to open the main seal groove up.

This is why so many guys have a good loathe for split main seals. A one piece seal eliminates this issue.

Clean the main seal groove in the cap and block. Slip the seal into the block and measure how far the seal is proud from the block. You don't need much more that .005-.008 proud. If you have more than that, you need to very carefully use a belt sander (I just use a bench mounted belt sander) and carefully sand off a small amount from each end. Go slow, and take small bits. Clean the seal every time you sand it. Slip the seal back in the block and measure again.

Again, I can't emphasize taking your time. If you sand and measure 10 times...sneak up on it. Once you get down to .005-.008 clean it up and do the same thing to the cap seal.

Now you can put the seal in the cap and the block and not do all that kookie crap about clocking the seal so the mating surfaces of the seal don't meet at the parting line. That's a bad deal. The seal is designed to be crushed at the block/cap interface. Changing the clocking effectively changes the crush, but the seal will still be out of round and leak.

I used and brand new, never touched X block on my engine and I had to fix the seal. It was .020 or some crazy amount proud. I did have to line hone it a bit to get everything round and straight but that was a bunch considering it was a new block.

That's the way to fit a main seal. If you picture in your mind what happens when the seal has too much crush (the seal is too proud out of the block) you'll see that as you over crush the seal it goes out of round. It may seal for a while, but since it's not round, you will get local hot spots and the seal won't be correctly loaded against the crank. This wears the seal very quickly and the leak comes right back.

Same thing with a main or Rod bearing. They have the amount of crush the designer wants built into the bearing. So the shells are proud of the block. Make the bores too small and you will squeeze the bearing out of round. Make the bore too big and the bearing won't have enough contact load against the bore and will overheat. And will spin in the bore.

Fix the crush issue and I think you problem will go away.

Please keep the forum updated, as this comes up all the time.
 
yellow rose said:
To fit the rear main seal is really easy, but you need to do it with caution. You'll be removing materiel from the seal. If you go too far, you can't put it back on and then you'll need a new seal.

The issue is every time you line bore or line hone the mains, you make any hole in that line smaller. That includes the main seal groove. It has to get smaller to. That is what happens when you cut the main caps. You make the main bearing bore smaller, and then you hone it back to round and to size.

The issue is you don't go back and open up the seal bore. I suppose you could, but you'd need the blueprints from the factory to see the size and tolerance AND you'd need to use a boring bar AND have the correct tool to open the main seal groove up.

This is why so many guys have a good loathe for split main seals. A one piece seal eliminates this issue.

Clean the main seal groove in the cap and block. Slip the seal into the block and measure how far the seal is proud from the block. You don't need much more that .005-.008 proud. If you have more than that, you need to very carefully use a belt sander (I just use a bench mounted belt sander) and carefully sand off a small amount from each end. Go slow, and take small bits. Clean the seal every time you sand it. Slip the seal back in the block and measure again.

Again, I can't emphasize taking your time. If you sand and measure 10 times...sneak up on it. Once you get down to .005-.008 clean it up and do the same thing to the cap seal.

Now you can put the seal in the cap and the block and not do all that kookie crap about clocking the seal so the mating surfaces of the seal don't meet at the parting line. That's a bad deal. The seal is designed to be crushed at the block/cap interface. Changing the clocking effectively changes the crush, but the seal will still be out of round and leak.

I used and brand new, never touched X block on my engine and I had to fix the seal. It was .020 or some crazy amount proud. I did have to line hone it a bit to get everything round and straight but that was a bunch considering it was a new block.

That's the way to fit a main seal. If you picture in your mind what happens when the seal has too much crush (the seal is too proud out of the block) you'll see that as you over crush the seal it goes out of round. It may seal for a while, but since it's not round, you will get local hot spots and the seal won't be correctly loaded against the crank. This wears the seal very quickly and the leak comes right back.

Same thing with a main or Rod bearing. They have the amount of crush the designer wants built into the bearing. So the shells are proud of the block. Make the bores too small and you will squeeze the bearing out of round. Make the bore too big and the bearing won't have enough contact load against the bore and will overheat. And will spin in the bore.

Fix the crush issue and I think you problem will go away.

Please keep the forum updated, as this comes up all the time.
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I will keep this thread updated. The engine is still in the process of being removed so it will be a few days before we even see what's going on. We are going to put fluorescent dye in the oil and run the pump with a drill while it's on the stand to see if we can find out for sure where it's leaking. I will take video of that and post it if we get results.
 
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