Flutter below 2k rpm

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mbaird

mbaird
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I have spent much time trying to get my 360 to run crisper below 2k. It is what I would call a flutter.
Engine is a 5.9 with EQ IMM heads (9.7:1)
222/229 @ .050. And .509 lift on 112 cam
Airgap with an AVS2 650
Dougs headers
Timing at 19* mech adv of 14* starting around 1000 and all in by 3000.
17* of Vac adv starting @ 12” and all in by 18”
Idles at 800 rpm with 14” in nuetral/12.5 in drive.
AFR is around 13.5 at idle and 14.5 at light cruise.
Cranking compression is 168-175 psi

I have tried both HEI and mopar electronic.
Orange and chrome boxes. 3 different distributors and installed new plug wires/ gapped the plugs to .034

Maybe I am just imagining this and its just the way it will run ?

Any thoughts?
 
Not making excuses, but the fact that we have become accustomed to fuel injected cars. You can forget what it feels like to drive a carbureted car. That being said the AVS 2 is supposed to smooth out the transition compared to the original AVS. So the flutter happens at a steady throttle position at 2000 rpm? Might just be were the carb is transitioning off the idle circuits to getting fuel through the boosters. If it is happening as your roll into the throttle you could play with the accelerator pump lever position. Closest hole to the carb is the biggest/ longest shot.
 
I dont think its the carb because I have run a 750 VS with same symptoms. The AVS definitely idles better and cleaner.
Itsalmost like a slight miss between 1200 and 2000
 
I guess it all depends on what you're callin a flutter. The bestest thing to do would be to upload a video with the BEST POSSIBLE audio you could get. Then we might get somewhere.
 
Did you try unplugging the vacuum advance?

Yes. I have tried both ported and manifold. Adjust the can back and forth for tip in.

I guess it all depends on what you're callin a flutter. The bestest thing to do would be to upload a video with the BEST POSSIBLE audio you could get. Then we might get somewhere.

It is subtle enough that I doubt a video will show it. It is almost like a cylinder is cross firing a bit.
It could be reversion from the cam that I will having to live with but the cam is not that big. Or I am just expecting too much.

I will check voltage at the coil tonight.
 
Flutter is .... fud fud fud.... vs. crackle crackle crackle. . Or as we say in Dirtbikes. BRAAAAP !
 
Yes. I have tried both ported and manifold. Adjust the can back and forth for tip in.
.
Vacuum advance should never go to the manifold. Did you unplug the vacuum advance and LEAVE it unplugged?
 
Flutter is .... fud fud fud.... vs. crackle crackle crackle. . Or as we say in Dirtbikes. BRAAAAP !
LOL...… I guess I'll leave this for the professionals to decipher….. LOL
 
I know you said you’ve tried different carbs, my experience years ago was going too lean on primary jets in a Holley. Wasn’t exactly a misfire or back fire. Just had like a “flutter” at steady rpm. Wasn’t really noticeable but could feel it, like a surge. If that makes sense.
 
That makes perfect sense. My O2 gauge tells me I am in the ballpark at 13.3-14.0 at idle and 14.5-15-2 @ light cruise. Of course it is only on the drivers side and I could have a distribution problem...
The Holley was puking gas out the tailpipe and I just could not grt it to behave. The holley did have much more power under full throttle
 
spitballing here, but if it made more power with a bigger carb it probably means the AVS is a touch small. Counterintuitive as it seems a to small carb can run rich while to big will be lean. Say that because it has higher air velocity through the booster than it should, pulling fuel through the booster sooner, it could spike rich for a second. Small blocks seem to like big carbs.
 
I agree. I should have ordered the 800 in retrospect but was looking more for driveability at the time.
 
Having played with a 800 AVS on my 408 motor I have the carb setup in a weird way that I haven’t been able to wrap my head around. This is race only though so keep that in mind. I have the primaries 3 stages rich and the secondaries 3 stages leaner. So you figure, put them both back to stock and the WOT AFR should be the same, but nope. It stumbles like you wouldn’t believe. I have seen the same thing with a dual quad hemi running eddy afb’s Only liked real rich primaries and lean secondaries. It might just be a bandaid for transition. I don’t know.
 
The Pro Systems Venom I had built for my W2 408 is over 900 in actual CFM. I havent driven the car yet but it idles spot on .
Interesting that you chose an AVS for a race application ....
 
That is cool! I love a stock look . What intake ? LD340

QUOTE="furrystump, post: 1972585749, member: 441"]Have to, run stock appearing class.[/QUOTE]
 
I have spent much time trying to get my 360 to run crisper below 2k. It is what I would call a flutter.
Engine is a 5.9 with EQ IMM heads (9.7:1)
222/229 @ .050. And .509 lift on 112 cam
Airgap with an AVS2 650
Dougs headers
Timing at 19* mech adv of 14* starting around 1000 and all in by 3000.
17* of Vac adv starting @ 12” and all in by 18”
Idles at 800 rpm with 14” in nuetral/12.5 in drive.
AFR is around 13.5 at idle and 14.5 at light cruise.
Cranking compression is 168-175 psi

I have tried both HEI and mopar electronic.
Orange and chrome boxes. 3 different distributors and installed new plug wires/ gapped the plugs to .034

Maybe I am just imagining this and its just the way it will run ?

Any thoughts?

Hang on, 168 to 175 @ Scr of 9.7 and with that cam at 2500 ft elevation is sending up red flags to me. And the vacuum seems a lil low for that cam also.......(EDIT, oh wait 2500ft elevation I get it now)..and the vacuum drop is too much
That looks like a 268/276/112, and should have an ICA around 64*. And I get
Static compression ratio of 9.7:1.
Ica of 64/elevation 2500ft
Effective stroke is 2.79 inches.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 7.78:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is .........................144.48
PSI.
V/P (Volume to Pressure Index) is ........................122
So........... something's not right.......

are those heads aluminum;
cuz if your pressure truley is 168 to 175, then you got too much pressure for iron......And if they are iron;they better be closed chamber/tight-Q.


Here's what you would need to make your pressure
Static compression ratio of 10.7:1.

Ica of 60*/2500ft
Effective stroke is 2.88 inches.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 8.80:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is....................... 171.60
PSI.
V/P (Volume to Pressure Index) is...................... 149

so any updates?

I ran a 223/230/110/.538/.549 Hughes FTH cam in my 367 for 4 years @ ~185psi, on an el-cheapo ignition with aluminum heads, ~10.9 Scr and a Q of less than .040(brainfart at the moment) Very smooth idle, could hardly tell it was a performance cam at all.

My guess is the low-speed circuit in that 650 is running too lean, because the throttle blades are too far closed, cuz the 19* idle-timing is too much. And/or the secondaries are not sealed up tight but not sticking.

The idle of 800rpm is too high, as evidenced by the 1.5" of idle drop going into gear. This occurs because of the torque loss at the new lower rpm. The trick is to not have so much torque difference between idle speeds in gear and out. Your first go-to is the timing. Take some out. Reset the mixture screws to mid adjustment (2.5 turns on the AVS IIRC) then backout the speed screw to get 650 in gear. If it goes lean, you'll have to give it fuel from the principle low-rpm/low load fuel delivery system, not cranking out the mixture screws and not increasing the rpm to cover the hole. On a Holley this is done by changing the transfer-slot exposure under the primary throttle blades. But on an AVS I can't remember. Ok I just checked; the Thunder 650 has transfer slots too, which are the principle low-rpm/low load fuel delivery system.
You gotta think of the mixture screws as idle trimmers and and the transfer slots as the main low-speed circuit; the two have to be balanced, one against the other.
If you give the engine too much timing, then these two go out of sync.
If you need a higher rpm after this is done, do NOT move the speed screw, get you some bypass air . You can do this with the pcv circuit, or bypassing air under the throttle blades into the PCV circuit, or thru the throttle blades, near to the idle discharge ports. But That Hughes cam in my engine did not need any bypass air.

My Hughes cam Vacuum- peaked in neutral at about 2000/2200rpm with 45* total timing including the Vcan (22*). I cannot remember right now what the actual number was. Maybe it'll come to me later.

What stall are you running?
 
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@AJ/FormS
I set the idle at 800 even though it will idle lower.
These are close chamber EQ magnum heads and my quench is around .038. No pinging at all.
The TQ is 2700 stall

I did not realize I could adjust the blades on the transfer slot on an AVS other than the idle screw.
So you are recommending backing up to what? Around 16* initial ? I have tried this combined with using the 18* slots on my FBO plate. But not with the AVS.
 
Oops.
E1A525B6-4D02-4E08-8870-13A25EBE9ACC.jpeg
 
I think it's too lean...I would shoot for closer to 12.5-12.9 at idle, and 13.2-13.4 cruise...try that. What is total timing? You should be no more than 34° total. I'm not a fan of using the Vac. advance...I would not use it if it were mine.
It's not too much compression for the iron heads....

Really ? 12.5 idle and 13.2 cruise. I thought that would be too rich. I will try it.
The timing is 19 initial + 14* mechinical
Vacuum has another 17 starting around 12” and all in around 17-18” ... hooked to ported supply.
 
274/282/112@.006;How in the world can you be making 168 to 175psi@9.7Scr, IDK. Might I suggest a second gauge?
And how in the world does that not ping with iron heads? Oh I see;290/301@.002,
Are you running pumpgas?

Anyway, that's doesn't seem to be a problem for you and it ain't the source of your "flutter".
As for;
I did not realize I could adjust the blades on the transfer slot on an AVS other than the idle screw.
The idle screw is the only way;
You could try this;
>rev it up to 2000, using the fast idle cam. Check the timing and change it to 22*@2000, then connect the Vcan back up and recheck the timing, it should be about 39* with your 17* can. ( I would mod that can to pull in 22 or more and bring it in as fast as it can.
But that's another story.)
> now place a rag over the secondaries and monitor the rpm change; the secondary throttle valves should be closed up tight but not sticking. So there should be little to no rpm change, make it so.
> Next take that shoprag and bring it over the primaries, if the rpm rises, it's lean, so screw out your mixture screws; as far as 3 turns out. If the rpm goes down then it's already rich so screw them in up to 1.5 turns from lightly seated. If you can't get the rpm to stabilize between 1.5 and 3 turns out, then you will have to modify the slow-speed circuit. This assumes the PCV is working, The brake booster is not leaking and you have no uncontrolled air entering the engine, and that the cam-timing is about where it's supposed to be.., and that the 22*@ 2000rpm I guessed at is pretty close.
> kick the fast-idle off, remove all shoprags.
> Now you have the correct balance between low-speed circuit and the mixture screws. Don't touch them.
> if the idle speed is not what you want, then you will use idle-timing and idle-air bypass to get it. And then you will need to redo the 2000rpm balance test.
> I would suggest a slower than 800 idle speed to prevent a harsh N>D engagement, and a less drastic vacuum drop. You'll be targeting an rpm drop in the range of 75rpm+/- 25rpm, and a minimum in-gear rpm of 650/675, altho with those long slow clearance ramps, I guess another 50rpm might be required, those ramps are crazy-long.

Here is something to think about
with 295/301 durations (at .002tappet rise) on a 112, the overlap comes to 74*. That makes the total time for all events to be (360x2)+74=794*.. In at 108 the compression comes to just 105* and the power extraction is just 93* Ok so the total time when NO valves are open, is just 105+93=198*. Just over 1/2 turn of the crank. Jus saying.
So when you talk about "flutter", recall that the intake valve @.002T is opening at 40* BTDC, and The exhaust is not closing until 34* ATDC... so there are 74 degrees whilst both those valves are open. The idea is that with a good working header, it will create a favorable situation where the atmosphere at WOT will plow some extra air/ fuel charge into the cylinder.
But at idle, the atmosphere is not able to get in there. But the header is still working.
So picture this; with both valves opened, the exhaust header is directly connected to the intake plenum, and the header-pipe is at a lower pressure than the cylinder is..... so where do you suppose that A/F charge is headed? Hyup some of it is going straight into the header, never gets burned unless it finds fresh air in the exhaust system, and makes it's way into the atmosphere at the end of the pipe.If it finds fresh air at the header flange,and if catches fire, then it will burn right there... causing a pressure spike, and a portion of that may find it's way back into the intake, thru the still open intake valve.
But that's not the worst of it.
Consider that the intake valve may be at .003 open (.002 tappet rise) , as the valve is closing, at 75* after Bottom Dead Center, and the effective stroke is only 2.33 from that 3.58 actual stroke, and the piston is approaching half way up the compression stroke when it finally closes. So as the piston is rising, at idle, it is well able to push some of that A/F charge it is receiving, straight back past the still open intake valve, and into the plenum.
At 800rpm, this is happening about 7 times a second between all 8 cylinders, and this is why your vacuum gauge is reading 14" in N/P..
Ok so , is there any chance that your "flutter" is related to any of this activity?
Ok so when does all this crap activity stop? That's easy to figure out, with a vacuum gauge on the plenum, just slowly rev it up. The vacuum will increase steadily, then plateau, then begin to fall again. The lowest rpm that generates the highest vacuum, is the point that all the air,or at least most of it , is finally flowing in the same direction...

So, I gotta ask; is there any chance that one of your headers is leaking at or near the flange. As the exhaust is leaving the chamber with only 93* of burn time, the tail end of it may still be hot enough to ignite the fresh A/F charge coming in on the overlap cycle, in the presence of fresh air also coming in at the flange.
 
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