Timing Retarding @ high RPM

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340Duster247

340Duster247

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Hey guys Tring to track down a timing problem 4000 rpm and up.
408 with Holley dual sync, hyperspark coil and CDI box. Distributor is installed and phased correctly. Timing at idle matches perfect.
Now I've been trying to figure out a misfire/stumble that happens above 5800 rpm. I Thought would double check my timing at higher RPMs. I perform a static timing check @ 34degrees ( For you non EFI guys this is like locking out your timing) and it stays pretty steady with minor fluctuations but once I get to 4-4500rpm in drops to 30 degrees. No matter how much I adjust and add to my inductive delay I still get that drop and timing retards. If I add too much inductive delay , the RPM below 4000 it will advance the timing as it should but once it gets above it retards back to 30 and fluctuates.
Any ideas?
 
Probably programmed into it. A lot of ignition boxes retard high RPM riming to avoid detonation.
 
ALL ignition boxes retard timing with RPM. It's not on purpose, it's the nature of the beast. You need to tune around it, or you are giving up some power.

Most guys don't know this because they never check timing past full mechanical RPM.
 
MSD digital 6, distributor locked, timing through all rpm's stays at 34 before TDC It idles at 1500 and when I have the light on it you can slowly go to 5500 and it don't move or skip a beet. the car shifts at a little above 8000 when shifting at 7800. It does not miss at all. I believe you may have issues. I am not going to elaborate there are guys on here that know everything and should have you figured out in a jiffy. If it were me I would check mechanicals first.
 
Oldmanmopar said:
MSD digital 6, distributor locked, timing through all rpm's stays at 34 before TDC It idles at 1500 and when I have the light on it you can slowly go to 5500 and it don't move or skip a beet. the car shifts at a little above 8000 when shifting at 7800. It does not miss at all. I believe you may have issues. I am not going to elaborate there are guys on here that know everything and should have you figured out in a jiffy. If it were me I would check mechanicals first.
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Congratulations. You are the ONLY one who has a box that doesn't retard with RPM.

Get a patent on that.
 
It advances 20 @ 800 RPMs, starts @ 14, Idles @ 34. Stays at 34. My 6AL with a boost master would change timing but i never saw my timing move on my digital 6.

4.JPG


aomni22[1].jpg
 
Oldmanmopar said:
It advances 20 @ 800 RPMs, starts @ 14, Idles @ 34. Stays at 34. My 6AL with a boost master would change timing but i never saw my timing move on my digital 6.

View attachment 1715369196

View attachment 1715369197
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The issue is the slew rates of the electronics. You can't fix that. So your stuff retards like everyone else does.

Baldwin performance has an excellent video of how it works, but I don't know how to link the video here.

If you want to see it, go to his FB page, click on videos and go down 4 rows and over 5 and watch the video.

ALL brands do it. Yours included.
 
yellow rose said:
Congratulations. You are the ONLY one who has a box that doesn't retard with RPM.

Get a patent on that.
Click to expand...
Here he is he'll get you fixed up in a couple posts unless he has to go down to his basement and deck a couple blocks. He can never give an opinion without putting someone down. No one knows anything but him. There are some that can only look good by making someone look bad. They are usually Yellow

Well yellowback I bought my ignition at Walmart. I installed it per the instructions on the back of the box. I had one problem with a wire location. The lady at customer service "probably your mom" new exactly where it went. On the henway. So I put it there. I may have the only ignition box that does that. One of One maybe. Do you have a fix for it. here is all I need to know right now.

Does anyone know if I should I take the wire off of the Henway?

If I need you in the future I'll post somewhere on this site. You'll be there right?
 
Oldmanmopar said:
Here he is he'll get you fixed up in a couple posts unless he has to go down to his basement and deck a couple blocks. He can never give an opinion without putting someone down. No one knows anything but him. There are some that can only look good by making someone look bad. They are usually Yellow

Well yellowback I bought my ignition at Walmart. I installed it per the instructions on the back of the box. I had one problem with a wire location. The lady at customer service "probably your mom" new exactly where it went. On the henway. So I put it there. I may have the only ignition box that does that. One of One maybe. Do you have a fix for it. here is all I need to know right now.

Does anyone know if I should I take the wire off of the Henway?

If I need you in the future I'll post somewhere on this site. You'll be there right?
Click to expand...


The issue is you are talking out of your ***. I can promise you that you are not immune to the laws of physics. Your box retards with RPM, just like the rest of them.

Some of the analog boxes can retard as much a 2 degrees per 1000 RPM.

So don't go telling anyone your **** doesn't back up. They all do it.

Again, Baldwin Performance has several videos on his site showing how it works.

Just because you don't know something doesn't make me wrong.

You can stop being a prick now. You are wrong. Get over it.
 
yellow rose said:
The issue is you are talking out of your ***. I can promise you that you are not immune to the laws of physics. Your box retards with RPM, just like the rest of them.

Some of the analog boxes can retard as much a 2 degrees per 1000 RPM.

So don't go telling anyone your **** doesn't back up. They all do it.

Again, Baldwin Performance has several videos on his site showing how it works.

Just because you don't know something doesn't make me wrong.

You can stop being a prick now. You are wrong. Get over it.
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Ask Don at FBO. He'll be the first to say he's got the only box in the world that doesn't retard ignition at high rpms, and that all others suck.
 
What distributor are you running? Is it a HEI/Bosch based or is it just a hall effect/magnetic/optical? If its a straight trigger to a CDI box, has to be the box. What is model of CDI?
 
340Duster247 said:
Hey guys Tring to track down a timing problem 4000 rpm and up.
408 with Holley dual sync, hyperspark coil and CDI box. Distributor is installed and phased correctly. Timing at idle matches perfect.
Now I've been trying to figure out a misfire/stumble that happens above 5800 rpm. I Thought would double check my timing at higher RPMs. I perform a static timing check @ 34degrees ( For you non EFI guys this is like locking out your timing) and it stays pretty steady with minor fluctuations but once I get to 4-4500rpm in drops to 30 degrees. No matter how much I adjust and add to my inductive delay I still get that drop and timing retards. If I add too much inductive delay , the RPM below 4000 it will advance the timing as it should but once it gets above it retards back to 30 and fluctuates.
Any ideas?
Click to expand...
Perfect for nitrous...:thumbsup::D
 
Holley dual sync. Hall effect. With a Holley hyperspark box. As per instructions from Holley "It is not supposed to fluctuate from the programed static timing at high rpm". If so add to the inductive delay. I've added a hole bunch to the inductive delay with no change. Like I said in original post.
I checked for slack in the timing chain and found.
 
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mopowers said:
Ask Don at FBO. He'll be the first to say he's got the only box in the world that doesn't retard ignition at high rpms, and that all others suck.
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Yeah, Don will be wrong. You can't eliminate slew rate. If he did that, he would be retired, sitting on the beach sipping exotic cocktails with half naked women fanning his ***.


The fact is I learned this years ago from the guy who developed the HyFire boxes for Mallory.

I no longer recall why I called Mallory, but I think at the time I was looking at timing on different cylinders. They all varied, and some cylinders needed more timing and some less.

I read an article where the NASCAR guys were buying multiple reluctors and bending the reluctors very carefully to change the timing to each cylinder.

The upshot was it was a waste of time at that point, because boxes with individual cylinder timing were not far away, and then he added the fact that ALL boxes retard timing with RPM. You can tune for it, but you can't eliminate it.

I think, Dr. Jacobs covered this in his ignition book as well.

I know Don. I like Don. I think he is honest. But on this he is wrong.

Again, all ignition boxes, including the Chrysler stuff and the HEI all retard with RPM. All of them.

Like I said, Baldwin Performance has at least 2 videos posted on his FB showing what happens with RPM. He actually has many good videos on that page.
 
You all put a question out there and I gave a honest reply and I am an *** hole because I don't see my timing move back.

Well it don't and they are putting a fresh stroker motor in a 9 sec Camaro today he just finished. I'll have them check the timing.

Could it be that because the light is put on the spark plug wire and operated from the coil that is way up stream from the light that resistance between the two have an effect. And could it be that the weaker the voltage from the coil it starts to back off do to resistance. This is just a guess. Maybe I am just not seeing that 1/2 a degreee that is so critical in your eyes .

I use a good coil that is recomended with the system. I have a new snap-on light.

I am going to throw my whole ignition system in the garbage because I don't see what you all are explaining as book facts and what others say that is the law. But if its on the internet it must be true.

Something must be wrong I'll also return the light to snap-on and tell them it holds to steady I need one that fluctuates at high RPM's

Maybe you all should try another coil and a better less resistant spark plug wire. I really do not have an argument for something I don''t see. You are saying it is built into all ignition boxes and they all differ per box. I read what you are saying I just don't see it in real life hands on.

I have had the factory Distributor go into static vibration at those RPMs so I went to a MSD billet with bearings

But who am I just another *** hole that didn't go to ignition school.

Again to the OP. I don't know your car but check the mechanicals first . If you have a timing chain tensioner throw it in the trash. Check the distributor for something wore. try another coil. these three things is where I would start if this problem arose after some runs were put on it. If it did it from the start of its life is different than if it is something that just started.

I post this video all the time. 8000 RPMs shifts for over 6 yrs and has gone much higher with momentum on the recall when in trouble before the shift. I watch this thing while timing it up for years to and over 5000 rpm's I didn't see what you are talking about. If I did I would say so.

Why don't one of you go out put a light on your real car, Video what you are telling me and show the world. If my motor was in the car I would make a video.

But as said , The internet knows and especially If they had it on CNN or MSNBC then it is fact on the west coast for sure. LOL.




.



My coil I use and my digital 6 box on a street driven car. and yes I did use pump gas on the street for cruises. C14 with 20% ? on the track.

Steve 102.JPG
 
Here's a tip.

Timing lights have electronics. They have a slew rate. You can't always catch timing retard with a timing light. But you can if you test the entire ignition on a distributor machine.


That's why only use your timing light on your engine. I've seen 6-7 degrees difference between timing lights.

Time your engine off plug readings and not a number.

And for the hard headed and slow learners, ALL ignition boxes retard with RPM. It's a KNOWN fact unless you are just too hard headed to learn.

When I was using a mag (and base timing my engine at 48 to make up for the inherent timing retard a mag has...just like an ignition box does) I can't tell you how many morons told me to ditch the mag because it retards with RPM. I'd tell them so does your box.

It seems the same idiots from 1988 are still not learning anything.

Next up...setting your power valve opening from idle vacuum.

Time to learn.
 
I think what the latest FBO, Revanator, and Pertronix III try to do is account for the slew. Inb otherwords it adds advance based on rpm to make up for known delay. Or FBO might simply be running the fastest stuff he could reasonably put in there. The Revonator uses patented technique that's been posted a few places. Something to do with triggering based off the previous spark. If there is interest I'll can find it and post which would be much better than my garbeled recollection of something I glanced at.
 
I develop ignitions and efi. Here is how timing timing is acurately measured without timing lights. Use a logic analyzer. A logic analyzer captures multiple logic signals, on conjunction with a high speed reference clock.

An example: capture dual sync signals (2), CDI logic trigger, and attenuated clipped coil primary. From those you can figure out actual ignition timings and delays. I can help with simple math,. On a V8 cylinder signals are 90 degrees apart. If half the distance 45 degrees, easy.

For bench work use micro programed for making signals like dual sync distributor, with ability to ramp RPM from cranking to past red line. Feed signals into ECU, use 5v supply pull ups to digital outs, feed those to logic analyzer, capture as above.
 
I just talked to a MSD tech and asked them about the retard that would come in at higher rpm's. He said only if I have a timing retarder being turned on with one of my digital switches for boost. Simular to the older Boost master I have for the Blower motor. The older Boost Master takes a Vacuum signal .

He told me there should be no retard unless it is programmed in. I am going to side with him on this He should know. this is all new stuff. Not **** from the 2000's. I never did anything with my adjustments except my rev limiter. I had no trans brake and I never hooked up a bottle. In the foot brake classes I ran you could not use electronics.

It has a MSD digital 6, MSD HVC coil, MSD billet distributor mechanical and it is locked. When I start the motor it idles @34 degrees before top dead center. It stays there up to 5000 when we have the Snap on RPM dial light on it. he won't take it higher in Nuetral. The EGT's were perfect through the quarter mile up to 8000 rpms.

We tried 4 different manufacture carbs . Pro-form 750. no way was that thing working, 850 holley it was rich , We got tired of playing with it. Then a 950 BLP . It had a dead spot in the middle Another waist of $900.

Then Steve put this 1050 Quick fuel on it he got from a dealer to try. Out of the box It was a little rich in the middle. I changed the primary air bleeds two sizes bigger and squared the primaries, Idled off the secondaries. This motor is like an off and on switch. foot brake to 2500 plant the peddle it goes right to 6000. Like its electric and its smooth.

Now I am not telling you what to buy. I am only telling you what worked for me.

Do not cut cost on Timing chain. you can get real good sprockets and cut to fit chains, Do not use a junk true roller with a tensioner. They make good true rollers. Hardened oil pump shaft. and honed to fit bushing,
 
I've seen timing retard on the old Mopar orange boxes. Was always told that's how they were designed. I've used the chrome box. No retard. I'm not gettin in this fray, just saying what I've tried and seen. I've also heard and read here on this forum that the old Standard LX101 box does not retard timing. I've never verified that myself. I cannot remember......it was either @moper or @oldkimmer who said that about the LX101 I think. Maybe they'll chime in.

Also, I cannot speak about the MSD stuff, as I have never used it. I know people who do and have never once heard them say the box retards at high RPM.
 
Mattax said:
I think what the latest FBO, Revanator, and Pertronix III try to do is account for the slew. Inb otherwords it adds advance based on rpm to make up for known delay. Or FBO might simply be running the fastest stuff he could reasonably put in there. The Revonator uses patented technique that's been posted a few places. Something to do with triggering based off the previous spark. If there is interest I'll can find it and post which would be much better than my garbeled recollection of something I glanced at.
Click to expand...


If I get a chance Sunday I'm going to call Tuner. I'll ask him again about being able to account for slew rate in electronics. I suppose it's possible.

The last time we talked about it (when I bought my distributor machine) we covered several areas and IIRC one was not being able to electronically cover for slew rate. At least not with common CDI type boxes.

In fact, one of his classic stories is about changing over from points to a CDI box and using 3 different timing lights...and the circus act that followed. Classic Tuner story.

I told him to write a book, but he won't. I told him I'll proof it for free. And buy the first 5 copies.
 
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