Shredding belts.

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SO I just started things up to check some of the suggestions. It appears that when the steering is cranked all the way, the PS Pump actually chatters and appears to drag while the belt continues to spin on it. I replaced my PS Box with a Borgson PS Box a while ago so I dont think it is the box. Would a bad PS Pump do that? Should there be a relief valve somewhere?
 
You said you went through 3 belts in 100 miles. Unless you're constantly driving around with the steering cranked all the way in one direction, it's unlikely that this is the problem. A worn drive pulley that's constantly slipping will kill a belt in just a few minutes. When the pulley gets glazed and overheated, it kills the belt even faster. I still suspect the pulleys are worn out.
 
It looks like the PS Pump literally shutter stops when turned and the belt continues to spin on the stopped pulley? That's where all the belt dust is coming from all over my fan and engine? The dust buildup is right by the PS pump and on the fan. I checked it a couple times this last belt and was surprised that the belt seemed to be loosening up all the time so I tightened it up tighter and tighter. Actually the wearing was allowing it further into the grooves "loosening it" and expediting the process. I don't have a gauge but the pulleys all three look like they still have a solid V shape
 
You can get wider belts. I forget the number, but you can get them over 1cm wide if needed.
 
I'd expect that Borgson quick ratio box to put more load on the pump so the extra force being put on the belt seems reasonable. If you have the habit of turning the wheel a lot sitting still, this is gonna make it worse.

Without any info on the belt, I can't say any more.
 
nm9stheham said:
I'd expect that Borgson quick ratio box to put more load on the pump so the extra force being put on the belt seems reasonable. If you have the habit of turning the wheel a lot sitting still, this is gonna make it worse.

Without any info on the belt, I can't say any more.
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#15445 Dayco or Gates
 
Your kids threw marbles in the power steering pump when it was sittin for 10 years. :poke:

Those pumps can hang up and burn up. You should never hold to one side (lock) for more than 5 seconds, but if the pullys hard to turn at speed, its gonna cause a problem, and if its a combination of evils such as pullys like Garry sez, then you are gonna shred em in a hurry.
 
Have you checked the shuttle valve on top of the power steering box? Usually it shows when people put in a new box and start the car and immediately cook a belt because the valve is all the way to one side. If yours is just a little off it could be locking up only occasionally. Just taking slightly longer to cook the belt. I can’t remember the procedure on how you set it. I know you loosen the bolts and slide it back and forth.
 
“adjust that valve the CORRECT way - with the front wheels off the ground and the car running. Ya just crack the bolts slightly loose on the valve and move it around til the valve is centered and the wheels no longer want to self steer.” I found this on moparts but you have to be careful it was in a post about the spool valve being misadjusted and the car turning hard to one side on its own.
 
For anyone new 71 Valiant; replaced Slant 6 with a 360 out of a Lil Red Express. Alright, I'm not sure if anyone is still on this thread but I did some work last light. Took off the PS pump and checked pressure valve. The shafts\pulleys are different for my old slant one but I did change the relief valve because it had two washers under the nut rather than one. Not sure how to get that nut off without destroying the spool but that is another thread. I put everything back together and put a new Dayco 15455 Belt. A little longer than the 15445 but plenty of room to adjust. So I am 100% sure now that when my 18 year old son is running this thing (always) and wasting my money on tires, the belt is slipping on the PS Pulley. I can hear it exactly there when I rev the engine with the hood open. This happens under rapid acceleration not under real slow acceleration. It also matches where the belt dust has been forming. So...tracing things back, I build the engine (mild) about two months ago. Put Hedman headers on it that were really close to the PS gear box. I had some overheating problems with the old slant so I went with a new 3 core radiator and an electric fan. Fan must have been junk because it did not cool anything down for the slant of for my new 360. The headers were so close and things were so hot under there that the PS Fluid was boiling out of the pump. Up til now, no problems with current belt issue. So I put Synthetic PS Fluid in and it seemed to solve the boiling problem and the same time I installed a mechanical 7 blade fan, now that moves some air. NO overheating problems anymore. This is when the belt issue began. The rotation of the belt suggests that the crank pulls the PS Pump and the PS Pump pulls the Fan so I do not think the fan can be an issue with the PS pulley slipping, its too late in the system. That was a long description to get to my question. Can Synthetic PS Fluid in a Saginaw Pump with a new Borgsen PS Box add drag to the system? Basically could it be that the fluid is wrong? Oh. I did check the pulley before I put it back on, The V-belt matches the groove very well.
 
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MZimmerman said:
AC Belts are fine. Just the one going around the water pump, Power steering pump and crank.
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I would seriously check the water pump and PS pump. It almost seems like one of them is fetching up and stopping the belt from spinning as was already mentioned.

They may seem fine until side pressure from the belt is applied.

Put a new belt on and try turning the engine over by hand and see if those pump pulleys are turning.
 
Thanks for the question. So my boy is driving it right now. It is only when he getting into it that this is an issue. If he drives it normal the belt is fine, no slipping through the entire RPM range.
 
How tight are the belts? Must have a lot of horsepower under the hood to shred belts by standing on it.
 
I have it tightened to about 1/4" play. It is pretty snug. It takes about 4 or 5 times to absolutely trash the belt. This really started after using Synthetic Fluid and the 7 blade fan.
 
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MZimmerman said:
I have it tightened to about 1/4" play. It is pretty snug. It takes about 4 or 5 times to absolutely trash the belt. This really started after using Synthetic Fluid and the 7 blade fan.
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Just to test, pull the fan off just to see what happens. Watch the temp gauge close though or install your old fan so you don't overheat.
 
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I think with you boiling the fluid etc that your ps pump.may be cooked. Check endplay AND good alignment on ps pump pulley. My ps pump had end play after I rebuilt it. Had to press on pulley to exact same spot(pain in the arse 2nd time around lol)
Also check new waterpump where the mount bosses are for all the brackets. Compare to your old water pump. I've had a new one off. Had to grind bosses down.
Good luck.
 
Thanks for the good info update. Good belt brand.... as long as it is not a Dayco Top Cog type..... OH CRAP... it IS a Dayco Top Cog belt. THROW IT IN THE TRASH!!! NOW! NOW! NOW! GET A NAPA PREMIUM BELT. These Dayco Top Cog's are nothing but trouble under heavy belt loads. They will slip badly without making any noise. BTDT...twice. It may not solve everything, but that is about the worst belt made, in my experience.

FWIW:
  • If it slips this under rapid acceleration of the engine RPM's, but not under slow acceleration when the car is sitting still, or at steady state RPM's low or high, then it is the rotational inertia inside the pump's innards that is make this slip. But see the next.....
  • Have you carefully checked for slipping at high RPMs? If so, then the total pumping load is the issue. That could be the fluid.
  • Peak loading on the pump takes place when turning. The faster the turn, the more load. So the faster steering rate of the new box is part of this.
  • Same thing applies if you turn the steering wheel with the car not rolling: the load on the pump goes way up. Since you mentioned your son, I'd be suspicious that he often turns the wheel with the car not rolling.
Bottom line, it now sounds like you are just exceeding load rating on the belt with a crappy belt; they do have power limits. The belt has to transmit power to 2 loads here; the smaller pulley is the one that will normally slip first. The added fan load seems like it ought not be a direct issue as these fixed fans were used for a long time in these cars, but it would add to the belt heating which might exacerbate problems at the PS pulley.
 
Still sounds like it's your ps pump. If it was your water pump you'd be overheating all the time. If you only have 1/4" play in the belt that seems awfully tight. You're putting a lot of pressure on ps pump shaft. IMHO.
 
MZimmerman said:
Thanks for the question. So my boy is driving it right now. It is only when he getting into it that this is an issue. If he drives it normal the belt is fine, no slipping through the entire RPM range.
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Sounds to me like you need a Fan Clutch on that 7 blade fan. Those Fans can take 25 horse power to turn them. Your son gets into it and that solid mount 7 blade fan has got to spin up right now, putting lots of stress on a normal belt system. Put a fan clutch on it, then the belt will be driven as if it has an automatic transmission powering it. The fan clutch will be much much more forgiving to your belts, and still moves all kinds of air when you need it to.
 
One last thing. There is a bracket /spacer that sometimes gets left out. Almost rectangular and goes behind p/s bracket. Caused belt issues for me many years ago. Will look for a photo.
 
A77C1D36-BC2E-41C8-AA20-4D95FB5B55B5.jpeg
Pulled it off the forum right here.
Under load pump will slip if the one bracket is missing.i cant remember which where it goes.
 
Alright to all you Mopar brains. I changed the fan and put the old 4 blade from the slant on it and lo and behold I quit squeeking belts. So I guess I will need a clutch for that 7 blade fan. Its running 15 degrees hotter with the 4 blade. I was sure it was the PS Pulley, I was wrong! That's what this is for :) THANK YOU. Does anyone know if they make a clutch for the 7 blade that was built to be direct drive? Mine has a little center hole. No jokes please!!
 
toolmanmike said:
Just to test, pull the fan off just to see what happens. Watch the temp gauge close though or install your old fan so you don't overheat.
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Good thing you tested it and found the issue.

I think the fan hubs are different between the direct drive and the clutch fans. You will need to find a clutch fan. Watch the thickness of those though. There's not much room .
 
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