No Bronze Guides, Any Reason?

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SpeedThrills

FABO Gold Member
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As I reassemble my 360 that I bought used (took it apart to see what was in it and check its condition), I'm looking over the heads now. Ferrea stainless valves (2.02 intakes), ported, Crane Gold Rockers, aftermarket retainers, springs and keepers. As was the rest of the engine, they're in nice shape- almost. The builder (unknown) didn't install bronze guides. Some of the exhaust valve guides are a little loose. I can only imagine they're wearing quickly, because the rest of the engine showed little wear. It has a MP 292-508 cam. I haven't checked rocker geometry yet.

Is there a reason why someone would not install bronze guides?
 
They were maybe Knurled as a repair, look inside the guide with a bright light and see if you can see what appears to be threads, that would be the knurling.

Yes they can wear faster.
 
They were maybe Knurled as a repair, look inside the guide with a bright light and see if you can see what appears to be threads, that would be the knurling.

Yes they can wear faster.
Or the guides were not serviced at all. If truly loose, I'd get them serviced properly. That's one of the key foudations of a good engine.
 
Take them into a good engine machinist and have them gone through. You don't want to mess up your build! 65'
 
loose guides will, as you most likely know, not allow concentric valve/ seat and will quickly beat each other up
they will also eat the seals and oil in the combustion chamber will...
get's worse from there
these are new valves?
I'd go with the K Lines with the internal threads they hold a little oil which helps in these unleaded days
and I'd find a shop with a Sunnen OD valve hone and OD hone the valve stems
you will quickly find any problems and also the hone also helps hold some lube
only takes a few strokes to get a smooth feel with the stone if the valves are straight andnot worn, tapered, bell shaped etc
cut the guides for viton seals if not already done
no use checking concentricity with loose guides- waste of money
and they might seal with alcohol- also meaningless
and no lapping with valve grind compound for any reason, even to check the seats- use dykem blue
your valve expands hot and the lapped seat will move and let's just say "not be optimal when hot"
check your spring pressures while you are at it, and stem heights
Did we mention going to the B3 website and reading the 4 tech articles?
 
I run bronze Guides ,I've run steel guides ...steel guides last long for me... bronze are great too..they wear the valve stems less and have a diff expansion rate..people like them in hp stuff, stuff that is re freshed/machined frequently. I don't know what to tell you. A lot of people have preference and their reasoning behind it.
I have bronze guides in my ported J's, steel guides in my ported X's... they've both done fine. .528 , .575 lift ea.
No reason other than cost or preference.
The factory didnt use them, thats cost, but the motors went over 100k at least. So there ya go.
 
For that cam I would not have used bronze guides either.
A hardened cast iron guide is plenty good enough for that.

As long as the clearance is correct, there is nothing wrong with a cast iron guide.
 
When working on hostile environment engines we found that certain guides were incompatible with certain stem materials
same with unleaded applications
we ended up with hard chrome stems and threaded/ knurled guides
we even knurled new iron and steel guides then ream and hone)
but here we have stock guides that are worn
problem with mopars is getting a replacement guide concentric with the oem guide/ seat
hence using inserts either solid or coils
 
You could have liners installed and have balls pressed though for size if your guides are loose. Much better than knurling.
 
Take them into a good engine machinist and have them gone through. You don't want to mess up your build! 65'
I have to find one. I'm in the very bottom of South Jersey, haven't done any engine work since I've lived here.

Stock steel guides last longer.
I'm not familiar. I thought they were all machined the head casting.

When working on hostile environment engines we found that certain guides were incompatible with certain stem materials
same with unleaded applications
we ended up with hard chrome stems and threaded/ knurled guides
we even knurled new iron and steel guides then ream and hone)
but here we have stock guides that are worn
problem with mopars is getting a replacement guide concentric with the oem guide/ seat
hence using inserts either solid or coils
Shouldn't be too hostile. A street toy with some drag use.

BTW, what is the B3 site? Google didn't show it.

The valves aren't new, but in very good shape.

Bottom line, it wasn't done, and it should have been. The rest of the engine shows no corners cut. Strange. Kinda sucks to have to bury the valves a little bit to fix it.

I need to find a good machinist. I know it's subjective as to where in the country the shop is, and other factors, but what's an estimate of cost to do guides and a valve job? I haven't done this in 25 years or so. I can check spring pressure and of course, assemble them.

I'd love to add Edelbrock's. But it has KB190's. Summit's site says they won't work with Edelbrock's. Anyway, the cost of heads ain't in the budget!
 
I have the spiral bronze guides in my 273 heads. They were prepped at a race shop and I traded tools for the work so I don't have any idea on price.
 
As I reassemble my 360 that I bought used (took it apart to see what was in it and check its condition), I'm looking over the heads now. Ferrea stainless valves (2.02 intakes), ported, Crane Gold Rockers, aftermarket retainers, springs and keepers. As was the rest of the engine, they're in nice shape- almost. The builder (unknown) didn't install bronze guides. Some of the exhaust valve guides are a little loose. I can only imagine they're wearing quickly, because the rest of the engine showed little wear. It has a MP 292-508 cam. I haven't checked rocker geometry yet.

Is there a reason why someone would not install bronze guides?
There a lot of reasons, but specifically, iron wears well as is. What do You mean by "a little loose"? All exhaust guides are a little loose compared to the intakes, are they too loose, and have You had them mic'd out to see? A little loose is way better than a little tight on the exhaust side, if gives You leeway if You happen to run lean & they heat-up.
A siezed exh. valve=blown engine................
 
Reaming, is what "balls" mean.
Your wrong. My son installs them they are sizing balls you push through the bronze liners. If I get to the shop I will get some pictures of them. They also have pilots you push through now. I just called him to confirm what I stated. He laughed and asked if it was the same guy that uses the pistons to square deck a block.

He does this work every day for many auto and cycle shops that bring their machine work here . I just saw him doing some heads for a "shovel head" Instead of bronze guides these are bronze liners, There are boxes and boxes of different liners in the cabinet. Knurling is for shops that can't afford the tooling to install liners. You can control the sizing of the stem to guide clearance more accurate.

The new tooling is a hour glass looking pilot. More expensive I guess.

Some of you should not give advice if you don't know. I know I will not unless I talk to my son who is up to date on tooling. For those of you that are close to me you all can stop in when ever you want for work to get done..

Dave comes here all the time 1969383valiant he can confirm what I am saying. when my son does work the finished parts always get set on a clean shop towel. All completed heads and motors are bagged or shrink wrapped. He is very clean & meticulous with his work. Nothing goes out the door unless it is perfect.

He cares more about pride then money. He does this work on the side and there is no shortage of work due to his reputation in our area.
 
He also does Nitro, Methanol, Nitrous, Diesel and Boosted motor work. He does the machine work for a local NASCAR shop. He's been doing this work for over 10 yrs. If you are local and can't afford the high price for good work PM me for his #number. Mention FABO to get in the door or you'll have a long wait.

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There a lot of reasons, but specifically, iron wears well as is. What do You mean by "a little loose"? All exhaust guides are a little loose compared to the intakes, are they too loose, and have You had them mic'd out to see? A little loose is way better than a little tight on the exhaust side, if gives You leeway if You happen to run lean & they heat-up.
A siezed exh. valve=blown engine................
As above.... measure valve-to-guide clearance to see what you really have, unless you have done enough engine work to have a good feel for how loose (in terms of side-to-sdie- 'wiggle') is good, or too much.
 
actually reaming is with a reamer
I use carbide
there is also broaching and sizing with balls
all have their places
the balls push the new guide into the old cast iron
especially with spiral wire guides
also called ball burnishing
on valves
you have Ti, hard chrome, flash chrome, steel, stainless and Inconel and some other exotics
you do each different
for example Chrysler 440 motorhome motors came with SIL-XB intakes and Inconel headed exhausts all with industrial hard chrome stems
The 413 motorhome had sodium cooled exhausts with hard chrome 7/16 stems as did the HD flathead We used the flathead exhaust in the Barney Navarro/ AMC indy 6 cylinder turbo project could run 1200 hp all day long

the knurling is for guides with no inside groves
not only locks the guide but is mostly to provide some places for lube to hide
 
My .02.......

The factory iron guides are fine for the softly sprung low lift factory cams when used in conjunction with the OE style seals, that don’t seal all that well, along with the actual factory guide clearances(usually .002+ on these old mopars)....... not to mention from a manufacturing standpoint...... it’s cheap to just drill a hole in the iron.

Step up with more lift, higher spring loads, seals that allow less oil to pass by, and the desire to run less clearance to maintain the integrity of the freshly done narrow valve seat........ and iron becomes a less than optimum choice.
 
Your wrong. My son installs them they are sizing balls you push through the bronze liners. If I get to the shop I will get some pictures of them. They also have pilots you push through now. I just called him to confirm what I stated. He laughed and asked if it was the same guy that uses the pistons to square deck a block.

He does this work every day for many auto and cycle shops that bring their machine work here . I just saw him doing some heads for a "shovel head" Instead of bronze guides these are bronze liners, There are boxes and boxes of different liners in the cabinet. Knurling is for shops that can't afford the tooling to install liners. You can control the sizing of the stem to guide clearance more accurate.

The new tooling is a hour glass looking pilot. More expensive I guess.

Some of you should not give advice if you don't know. I know I will not unless I talk to my son who is up to date on tooling. For those of you that are close to me you all can stop in when ever you want for work to get done..

Dave comes here all the time 1969383valiant he can confirm what I am saying. when my son does work the finished parts always get set on a clean shop towel. All completed heads and motors are bagged or shrink wrapped. He is very clean & meticulous with his work. Nothing goes out the door unless it is perfect.

He cares more about pride then money. He does this work on the side and there is no shortage of work due to his reputation in our area.
No it's the guy that spoke with you on the phone and was very respectful to you and likewise...who you now , like others ,run your mealy mouth to and treat like **** ..mean while advertising for your $ons machine $hop in every other post... tacky and in$ulting.
You yourself don't know what your son knows... you're just a blowhard parroting his words. Save your act , I'm not buying.
Ignore list.
 
My .02.......

The factory iron guides are fine for the softly sprung low lift factory cams when used in conjunction with the OE style seals, that don’t seal all that well, along with the actual factory guide clearances(usually .002+ on these old mopars)....... not to mention from a manufacturing standpoint...... it’s cheap to just drill a hole in the iron.

Step up with more lift, higher spring loads, seals that allow less oil to pass by, and the desire to run less clearance to maintain the integrity of the freshly done narrow valve seat........ and iron becomes a less than optimum choice.
Agreed, but what the OP is running is hardly there, I have heavy dual springs on 1.6rockers & .650 lift with spiral-grooved replacement iron guides & Mondello valves with a lot of street & race time on them, they are holding up just as good as the alloys....so far.......
 
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