Gotta love the clear coat.

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jos51700 said:
So, if the clear coat failed, where'd the rust on the roof come from?
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Many "base" coats no longer have the same UV protection as single stage paint offers. The clear is supposed to provide the UV protection. After the clear coat checked and started peel off, the base coat started to follow it. The paint on that car was done by a con artist "flipper", some places it had original paint straight under it (you can see the "petty blue" in some places in that same picture), other places where they sanded through was just metal. When the base coat checked the bare metal flash rusted, as it does. After, not before. When the base first started checking the metal below it was clean.

Sure, that clear was not applied properly. But I've seen plenty that was done right peel off just the same. Single stage is far more resistant to application issues than base-clear, even the "good stuff".

oi81b4uu812b4 said:
And if you leave your car outside all year round, I really don't know what you should expect after 5 years of the climate beating on it.
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Well the Summit brand single stage, low VOC California complaint paint I sprayed myself on the front clip of my Duster has held up just fine, and that was 5 years ago now. So yeah, I expect at least that. I've done that paint no favors whatsoever and it still looks as good as when I sprayed it.

blewbyoutobad said:
I work for Sherwin Williams Automotive paints and I can tell you there are so many knock off cheap clears made in China and everywhere else that's what you get with no maintenance, wax at least twice a year. Yes paint jobs need to be feed. The new glamour clears are exceptionally good and all of the good brands charge for them. PPG, Axalta, Siekens, Sherwin Williams, BASF etc. You will pay $500 - $700 for a gallon, a quart of hardener and a qt of reducer. All cars are now base coat clear coat and all repairs are done the same way. If you want it to last then spend the money, if not buy cheap and get 3-5 years out of it. Just like anything else you get what you pay for and being uneducated is not the way to get your car painted or it may look like the pictures here.
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Like I said, 5 years so far out of my Summit brand single stage, low VOC, "cheap" paint that I shot myself. Looks just as good as when I sprayed it, car's parked outside. No wax either because there's gonna be another paint job eventually and it won't go back to bare metal so no wax to keep it from contaminating the next layer of paint. Whenever that is. Yes I know that's not the way to care for paint, but it's a work in progress not some garage queen so sacrifices are made.

Being "educated" doesn't just mean buying the most expensive paint and spending a fortune to have someone else spray it for you. If you really know much about paint you can figure out that there are cheaper alternatives that will hold up just fine, because like a lot of things some of the "cheap" stuff is just re-branded name brand stuff. Paying more money for the same paint does not make you smart.
 
72bluNblu said:
Many "base" coats no longer have the same UV protection as single stage paint offers. The clear is supposed to provide the UV protection. After the clear coat checked and started peel off, the base coat started to follow it. The paint on that car was done by a con artist "flipper", some places it had original paint straight under it (you can see the "petty blue" in some places in that same picture), other places where they sanded through was just metal. When the base coat checked the bare metal flash rusted, as it does. After, not before. When the base first started checking the metal below it was clean.

Sure, that clear was not applied properly. But I've seen plenty that was done right peel off just the same. Single stage is far more resistant to application issues than base-clear, even the "good stuff".



Well the Summit brand single stage, low VOC California complaint paint I sprayed myself on the front clip of my Duster has held up just fine, and that was 5 years ago now. So yeah, I expect at least that. I've done that paint no favors whatsoever and it still looks as good as when I sprayed it.



Like I said, 5 years so far out of my Summit brand single stage, low VOC, "cheap" paint that I shot myself. Looks just as good as when I sprayed it, car's parked outside. No wax either because there's gonna be another paint job eventually and it won't go back to bare metal so no wax to keep it from contaminating the next layer of paint. Whenever that is. Yes I know that's not the way to care for paint, but it's a work in progress not some garage queen so sacrifices are made.

Being "educated" doesn't just mean buying the most expensive paint and spending a fortune to have someone else spray it for you. If you really know much about paint you can figure out that there are cheaper alternatives that will hold up just fine, because like a lot of things some of the "cheap" stuff is just re-branded name brand stuff. Paying more money for the same paint does not make you smart.
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True paying more for a name brand is not the answer as long as you choose an off brand that is quality I will not argue with that but I am not willing to take the chance in something I never tried before on a complete paint job. I will try Summit brand paint on a few projects I am doing because I trust your opinion.
 
72bluNblu said:
Many "base" coats no longer have the same UV protection as single stage paint offers. The clear is supposed to provide the UV protection. After the clear coat checked and started peel off, the base coat started to follow it. The paint on that car was done by a con artist "flipper", some places it had original paint straight under it (you can see the "petty blue" in some places in that same picture), other places where they sanded through was just metal. When the base coat checked the bare metal flash rusted, as it does. After, not before. When the base first started checking the metal below it was clean.

Sure, that clear was not applied properly. But I've seen plenty that was done right peel off just the same. Single stage is far more resistant to application issues than base-clear, even the "good stuff".



Well the Summit brand single stage, low VOC California complaint paint I sprayed myself on the front clip of my Duster has held up just fine, and that was 5 years ago now. So yeah, I expect at least that. I've done that paint no favors whatsoever and it still looks as good as when I sprayed it.



Like I said, 5 years so far out of my Summit brand single stage, low VOC, "cheap" paint that I shot myself. Looks just as good as when I sprayed it, car's parked outside. No wax either because there's gonna be another paint job eventually and it won't go back to bare metal so no wax to keep it from contaminating the next layer of paint. Whenever that is. Yes I know that's not the way to care for paint, but it's a work in progress not some garage queen so sacrifices are made.

Being "educated" doesn't just mean buying the most expensive paint and spending a fortune to have someone else spray it for you. If you really know much about paint you can figure out that there are cheaper alternatives that will hold up just fine, because like a lot of things some of the "cheap" stuff is just re-branded name brand stuff. Paying more money for the same paint does not make you smart.
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Usually when I see the base coat peel away, the primer underneath still adheres to the metal, at least for a while. You've got a couple issues going on with your roof, old paint is exposed (probably lacquer) , most likely a couple different primers to do spot repairs when they sanded through the metal. probably done with aerosol cans as they went along sanding...

Did they even use a sealer? Primer is porous and will attract water. And on bare metal it will let water in a rust starts to bleed through like a rash like you are showing. And a sealer would have helped adhere the base coat. They are non-porous and keep water out.

I'd get that roof fixed ASAP since you are leaving the car sit outside and rust is coming through. Once surface rust starts to root in a panel it's hard to fix without it popping back through your repair.
 
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Always use a sealer! Your order should be...
(Always read your product data sheet)

Etching Primer over bare metal to seal the surface
Urethane Primer to cover Etching Primer and used to level the surface with sanding. If you sand through to bare metal, guess what? Re-prime.
Sealer applied about 30-45 minutes before base coat (pick your shade of sealer because most new paints don't cover worth a crap now.)
Base Coat or Single Stage
Clear Coat over base within time per the data sheet.

Old single stage paints and primers were usually lacquers, old enamels couldn't cut into those lacquer paints. You can reduce an enamel with lacquer thinners, but you can’t reduce any lacquer paints with a enamel reducer.

Most newer paints are urethane or basically catalyzed epoxy and are made to adhere to a sealer.

Paint is part solvents. And The solvents will basically soak into the old paint or primers, depending on what surface you are spraying over. Once the solvents start soaking in, they will lift the old paint or primer almost like a paint remover. Sometimes it can happen instantly or take up to a few months or years. But you will see it and this can start peeling and flaking...
 
oi81b4uu812b4 said:
Always use a sealer! Your order should be...
(Always read your product data sheet)

Etching Primer over bare metal to seal the surface
Urethane Primer to cover Etching Primer and used to level the surface with sanding. If you sand through to bare metal, guess what? Re-prime.
Sealer applied about 30-45 minutes before base coat (pick your shade of sealer because most new paints don't cover worth a crap now.)
Base Coat or Single Stage
Clear Coat over base within time per the data sheet.

Old single stage paints and primers were usually lacquers, old enamels couldn't cut into those lacquer paints. You can reduce an enamel with lacquer thinners, but you can’t reduce any lacquer paints with a enamel reducer.

Most newer paints are urethane or basically catalyzed epoxy and are made to adhere to a sealer.

Paint is part solvents. And The solvents will basically soak into the old paint or primers, depending on what surface you are spraying over. Once the solvents start soaking in, they will lift the old paint or primer almost like a paint remover. Sometimes it can happen instantly or take up to a few months or years. But you will see it and this can start peeling and flaking...
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you forgot to include a roller
 
Is that why new paint jobs are so expensive; Your 'painting' the car 5 times...?
 
I painted a car 25 years ago in base with clear coat and it still looks great. I'm not sure why everyone has issues with painting other than they use cheap product or really didn't know what the hell they were doing, or they are just leaving the car sit outside year round.

And I think it needs to be pointed out that automotive "clear coat" isn't the **** made by Minwax you put on wood.
 
oi81b4uu812b4 said:
I painted a car 25 years ago in base with clear coat and it still looks great. I'm not sure why everyone has issues with painting other than they use cheap product or really didn't know what the hell they were doing, or they are just leaving the car sit outside year round.

And I think it needs to be pointed out that automotive "clear coat" isn't the **** made by Minwax you put on wood.
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Not sure who's got issues with the paint job they dis, but the majority of us have clear coat jobs they bought into that are going south. Who knows who painted my example but I know the material or process was sub par as my 65 still had its stock paint on it and I could still put a reflective shine on the hood. Even the old 'new' cars off the lot were checking in 5 years, just bad water based "green" formulations.
 
pishta said:
Not sure who's got issues with the paint job they dis, but the majority of us have clear coat jobs they bought into that are going south. Who knows who painted my example but I know the material or process was sub par as my 65 still had its stock paint on it and I could still put a reflective shine on the hood. Even the old 'new' cars off the lot were checking in 5 years, just bad water based "green" formulations.
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Your old paint is lacquer, it will almost always buff to a shine... but it also will wear away...

Still not sure where everyone is claiming their paint jobs are toast in 5 years. All of see are pictures of questionable work and neglected cars left outside.

If i were a Chevy or Dodge truck owner I’d be more concerned about the rockers, cab corners and tops of the rear fender wells being rusty at the 5 year mark.
 
I think the sun here is the killer on the clear coat. Our 1992 Jeep Cherokee and 1996 Dodge Dakota (both factory red) have now lost almost all the clear coat on the roof and hood. The 2001 Jeep Cherokee has held up so far, but it is only a matter of time. No sign of such thing on the single stage classic vehicles.
 
Many of us have no covered parking so yeah, so. cal sun is rough. As we have it 300 days a year. Wonder what percentage of cars are left out in the elements nationwide....70%? I know all the garages around here are full of junk, and Fords/Chevys dont count. I think the labor cost of maintenance these days retires many cars before the paint is the issue. Pick a part is littered with 10 year old cars with good paint. Some look pretty darn good for a wrecking yard. Need a new transmission in a 2008 caliber? $2600? Scrap it.....that's how millenials roll today.
 
pishta said:
Is that why new paint jobs are so expensive; Your 'painting' the car 5 times...?
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A quality gallon of clear can easily cost $3-500, and you still need hardener and reducer plus all the other materials. Base coat is even more expensive and then you will need a sealer just to paint it. So $1500 just for paint materials for one car is pretty common (PPG, Axalta, Sherwin Williams, BASF etc.) if you are a professional. If you do the cheap you buy junk with no cust support and still pay $500 - $1000.
 
pishta said:
Many of us have no covered parking so yeah, so. cal sun is rough. As we have it 300 days a year. Wonder what percentage of cars are left out in the elements nationwide....70%? I know all the garages around here are full of junk, and Fords/Chevys dont count. I think the labor cost of maintenance these days retires many cars before the paint is the issue. Pick a part is littered with 10 year old cars with good paint. Some look pretty darn good for a wrecking yard. Need a new transmission in a 2008 caliber? $2600? Scrap it.....that's how millenials roll today.
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I'm confused... are you saying your 5 year old daily driver left in the elements has the clear coat peeling off in California. But a 10 year old clear coated car left in the elements in a California junkyard usually look brand new and no clear coat issues?

I agree, young people just throw cars away with no knowledge on how to fix there cars.
 
blewbyoutobad said:
A quality gallon of clear can easily cost $3-500, and you still need hardener and reducer plus all the other materials. Base coat is even more expensive and then you will need a sealer just to paint it. So $1500 just for paint materials for one car is pretty common (PPG, Axalta, Sherwin Williams, BASF etc.) if you are a professional. If you do the cheap you buy junk with no cust support and still pay $500 - $1000.
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Right in the middle of painting mine base PPG Deltron is 1200 a gallon and PPG 4000 clear I can't remember what the cost was a gallon not to mention sealer and primer and epoxy primer and good bondo and all the sand paper and everything else to restore my car has added up. But damn if I will put all my time into it and use cheap materials to watch my paint job deteriorate after a few years. Even so I have a heated garage to store it in that was done before I even bought my car. I'm not saying you have to buy expensive paint to get a quality paint job but would say that you better try the cheep stuff on an old tractor or lawn mower and see how long it lasts before you go putting it on a car you worked your *** on to restore.
Just my 2 cents everyone is different and can live with that.
 
I'll say you take more chances for failure with cheap stuff that name brand. The cheap stuff is a knock off, why not use knock off piston, rods and bearings in your motor? The big companies spend millions to develop and test their products vs some no name who reverse engineers there junk. I have always used brand name for over 40 years and never had a problem. I have used single stage decades ago that did everything everyone here is talking about and it was a brand name. This is not about clear being crappy. All paint can have problems for dozens of reasons, so lets not blame clear when every case is different and requires much knowledge about the paint job in order to diagnose it properly. Remember Chebys had paint pealing like crazy in the 90's. They were clear coat but it was the waterbase color causing the problem not the clear. Clears are not waterbase and are better today than anything ever developed.
 
oi81b4uu812b4 said:
Your old paint is lacquer, it will almost always buff to a shine...
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Stock 1965 paint would be baked on enamel, not lacquer - lacquer was what the show car guys used back then - 10 foot deep finish, but cracked/crazed and/or yellowed over time
The baked enamel lasted really well, but it was 'hard' - that's why door dings used to be chips - the metal was stiff, the paint was hard, so the paint would crack and flake off. Now the metal is soft and the paint is flexible, so it takes more to get the paint to chip off, but the thin metal dings easily (and can be 'paintless dent repair'ed now)
 
oi81b4uu812b4 said:
I'm confused... are you saying your 5 year old daily driver left in the elements has the clear coat peeling off in California. But a 10 year old clear coated car left in the elements in a California junkyard usually look brand new and no clear coat issues?

I agree, young people just throw cars away with no knowledge on how to fix there cars.
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No, I got nothing 5 years old that is checking, but the 80's-90's cars were peeling before the 5 year warranties were up. And I have heard a few warranty claims that were not covered (improper care, no wax, not washed regularly, etc) those were the terrible paint cars. Newer cars (in the past 10 years) seem to be holding on, even in the yards, but I still see some dark paint examples rolling around with cancer paint. We had a 2012 Grand Caravan we traded in 2 years ago that was checking on the roof, that would make it 5 years old when it started....always parked outside, hard to get up there every time and wax that roof.
 
I painted this car in my collection 25 years ago PPG DelStar with Clear Coat...

Just got it out Friday. Still looks Great!

958D7CF3-0856-447C-B9F9-0000D2A2FE29.jpeg
 
and shade......? My personal beater truck paint is the least of my worries. Its just a good example of how clear could go wrong from being unmaintained or cheap *** materials. All you guys with nice clear coat jobs, congrats.
 
And here is 35 year old paint on my Barracuda...

Take care of your car and don’t let it sit out in thecelements:

69DE76B3-0784-4EBF-A9DC-9A774E8C565A.jpeg
 
oi81b4uu812b4 said:
And here is 35 year old paint on my Barracuda...

Take care of your car and don’t let it sit out in thecelements:

View attachment 1715391757
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Yeah, it's the elements if everything else is done right. My 2006 Chrysler town & country was garages always until 3 years ago. I never waxed it and took it to brush type car washes regularly. It looked great and had no peeling whatsoever. After parking outside for 3 years it's peeling like crazy.
oi81b4uu812b4, your tutorial on primers and prep was right on. It should be a " to how" article. Thanks much. Steve.
 
I got a rude awakening recently.
It seems that Sherwin Williams can no longer mix Y3 in single stage at all.
Not even in single stage urethane.
So this month, I switched over to PPG since it seems they can mix most anything in single stage.
Clear coats seem like extra work to me for any supposed benefits.
 
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