First time start - no go

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Bl1zzard

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Hi everyone,

I've gone through all the first time startup procedures and have been getting ready for this day for almost a year since we bought the car. Battery fully charged, coolant, gas in the bowls, primed the oil pump, turned it over and a couple of cylinders seemed to fire, some back fire out the carb, but it wouldn't catch. Adjust the timing, tried again. No joy. Further timing adjust made it worse. Put is back to the starting position. Even tried backing off the other direction. Nothing. Checked plug wires, coil wires, nothing seems to be getting hot. I don't want to keep turning it over and flattening the cam. Measured the voltage at the coil and it's only 4 volts, should be 12 right on both terminals or between them? Any help or advice would always be appreciated. You guys have already been a great help getting me to this day.

Oh yeah, 1974 Dodge Dart Swinger with a 360 LA, a few mods were made like a purple cam, headers, Carter 650 carb, nothing crazy. I didn't do the rebuild, bought it that way and it's never been started since.
 
You didn't say what type of ignition system you're using. Have you double and triple verified the firing order and correct wires to the correct plug? If the wires are correct, is number one wire going to number one plug when piston is at TDC when rotor is pointing to number one wire? . Hopefully they installed the timing chain correctly? I'm sure you got number one cylinder at TDC and verified timing marks at TDC??
 
Thanks for the replies. Yes, I've checked and rechecked the plugs are wired up properly, #1 cylinder was at TDC with rotor pointing to #1, firing order has been checked and rechecked. I think it's the voltage at the coil. So is it the regulator, ballast resistor or the ECU I should be looking at next?
 
Ballast resistor is probably too 'heavy' (too much resistance).
Or there's resistance in the wiring/connectors/bulkhead-connector somewhere.
Easy to check where the voltage is being dropped from 12 to 4.
 
If you need to break in the motor just run a jumper wire to the coil right from the battery that way you know you got a solid 12v at the coil and find and fix the electrical problem later, If you crank it to much you can rub the lube off the cam.
 
Thanks for the replies. Yes, I've checked and rechecked the plugs are wired up properly, #1 cylinder was at TDC with rotor pointing to #1, firing order has been checked and rechecked. I think it's the voltage at the coil. So is it the regulator, ballast resistor or the ECU I should be looking at next?
That ignition setup procedure has a 50-50 chance to be wrong, and it is not adequate. With #1 at TDC, #6 is also at TDC and so either #1 or #6 can be firing. You have to look at the valves with #1/#6 at TDC. If both #1 valves are slightly open, then #1 is at the overlap (ending exhaust stroke and starting intake stroke) and #1 is NOT firing; #6 is firing then.

So you need to take off at least the valve cover on the left side and check valves when at #1/#6 TDC. When #1/#6 at TDC, turn the engine back and forth with a socket or breaker bar on the snout bolt; if the #1 valves are moving as you do this, then point the rotor at #6 and rewire for the right firing order. The misfiring and sputtering could well be due to this being backwards.

What ballast resistor do you have? Is is a stock original coil and ballast or ????

Your cranking voltage at coil+ should equal the battery voltage which is probably going to sag to around 10V when cranking, but for sure should not be 4v to ground. You probably have the starting bypass circuit not hooked up (which is what puts full battery voltage to coil + when cranking). Do as B6P suggest and jump 12v direct to coil + while cranking; once started, you can pull the jumper off and it ought to stay running. If all else is good, then you will typically have 6-9 volts at coil+ when running normally with the proper coil and ballast resistor.

Don't worry about the regulator right now... that sets the alternator output voltage when running.

Is the rest of your wiring known good or is it unknown?
 
Thanks, I used a compression tester when bringing up #1 to TDC. That should confirm it is ready for firing too, correct?
Thee ballast resister is stock and probably the one in place when it was a slant 6. I'll try the jump direct to the coil + and see if that works.
The rest of the wiring is unknown, I have headlights, signals, hazards, interior lights, so it seems to be all in place and working properly. No radio, so I can't confirm that circuit.
 
Thanks, I used a compression tester when bringing up #1 to TDC. That should confirm it is ready for firing too, correct?
no - it could be at exhaust stroke instead of intake. The piston comes up twice during a cycle. As stated above you need to verify valve positions.
read this Distributor drive gear position at TDC
post 11 may be helpful - it could simply be that your distributor is 180 degrees off - not the cap or the wires, just the distributor ----- and it does sound like you may have a "wiring" issue.
 
no - it could be at exhaust stroke instead of intake. The piston comes up twice during a cycle. As stated above you need to verify valve positions.
read this Distributor drive gear position at TDC
post 11 may be helpful - it could simply be that your distributor is 180 degrees off - not the cap or the wires, just the distributor ----- and it does sound like you may have a "wiring" issue.

If it's on exhaust stroke the compression gauge won't read any pressure
 
Thanks for the replies. Yes, I've checked and rechecked the plugs are wired up properly, #1 cylinder was at TDC with rotor pointing to #1, firing order has been checked and rechecked. I think it's the voltage at the coil. So is it the regulator, ballast resistor or the ECU I should be looking at next?
Easy stuff first- Measure the voltage between coil and good ground with the key 'on' and then in the cranking position(a helper is handy and disconnect the big coil wire!)and see what you get. That will help narrow the problem down. If the voltage is low both ways, the issue lies on the feed side of the switch. If it gets 12v cranking and low voltage in run, the problem is in the 'run' circuit, and vice versa. The switch itself is a possibility either way but start by checking connections and finding the point where the voltage is dropping. Firewall relay, fusible link through that pesky bulkhead connector, through the ignition switch and back into the engine bay....getcha the diagram and a meter and take your time, you'll find it.
 
The voltage regulator gets it on/off voltage from the Ignition circuit.....
 
The voltage regulator gets it on/off voltage from the Ignition circuit.....
Okay true, but for our purposes it doesn't 'affect' the ignition system; the engine will fire up and run even without a regulator(not a good idea!:eek:)
Not likely the ballast resistor either if it doesn't even want to fire while cranking.
Bl1zzard are you using a known good ECU?
 
This might be in waaay out in left field here....there's a voltage issue, yes...but are you sure it's not flooding? I helped the neighbor kids get their chevy started, they said 'it was running fine before we rebuilt the carb!' Well the floats were off and it would pour gas down the intake as soon as they started cranking it..just a random thought..
 
Okay true, but for our purposes it doesn't 'affect' the ignition system; the engine will fire up and run even without a regulator(not a good idea!:eek:)
Not likely the ballast resistor either if it doesn't even want to fire while cranking.
Bl1zzard are you using a known good ECU?
I don't know if it's good. We bought car last year not running.
 
This might be in waaay out in left field here....there's a voltage issue, yes...but are you sure it's not flooding? I helped the neighbor kids get their chevy started, they said 'it was running fine before we rebuilt the carb!' Well the floats were off and it would pour gas down the intake as soon as they started cranking it..just a random thought..
I thought it might be flooded too, so I did the old hold it wide open trick, no dice.
 
Millions upon millions of (hot wired) stolen cars will attest to the fact that hot wiring the coil works extremely well. Unless a Mopar (hot wired) was never stolen????:lol::mad::mob:
 
Thanks, I used a compression tester when bringing up #1 to TDC. That should confirm it is ready for firing too, correct?
Thee ballast resister is stock and probably the one in place when it was a slant 6. I'll try the jump direct to the coil + and see if that works.
The rest of the wiring is unknown, I have headlights, signals, hazards, interior lights, so it seems to be all in place and working properly. No radio, so I can't confirm that circuit.

You would think so.....but I'd personally not trust that. IMHO: Make a check that is 100% sure: Check for which valve pair is at overlap on #1/#6 TDC and wire the distributor spark wires accordingly. That fact that you have backfires out the carb says you very probably have a timing issue somewhere. Once done, then make sure your distributor rotor is pointed very close to #1 or #6 when at the 0 timing mark. It ought to be slightly CW from the appropriate spark tower.

/6 ballast ought to be fine. Check resistance when disconnected and it ought to be almost 0 ohms cold... 0.6 ohms cold to be exact. But that is bypassed out of the circuit when cranking so should not matter.

Look at the number of prongs on the connection on the ignition module.... if 5 then you need a different ballast. If 4, you are OK with the present ballast.

Check your voltage at the battery when cranking and then check at coil + to see that you have about the same there. If so your ignition bypass circuit (which bypasses the ballast during cranking) is working.

Check the gap between the reluctor and the nubs on the distributor shaft with a non-magnetic feeler gauge to see if it is at .008". (BTW, 3 thicknesses of standard weight printer/copy paer is about .009"...)

As said.... jumper battery voltage direct to coil + and see. But if there are other wiring issues, then the power to the ignition module may or may not be good.

BTW, you can't get valid the voltage readings at the coil + with this electronic ignition system with the engine not running. So the 4 volt reading may or may mean anything.
 
HERE IS THE DEAL

So far as timing, sounds like you are on the right track, "Crackedback" here has pointed out many times you can check timing "on the starter."

So far as voltage, temporarily jumper 12V directly to the coil

HOW IT WORKS. You have two ignition power contacts off the ignition switch, IGN1 and IGN2. IGN1 is the 'run' voltage and supplies the switch end of the ballst, the VR, the alternator field, and is hot ONLY IN THE RUN position. It goes DEAD during cranking

IGN2 is ONLY hot during cranking, and is what supplies power for starting. This is the resistor "bypass" circuit and hooks in to the ballast on the COIL SIDE so the coils should be getting 'full battery' voltage during cranking

TO TROUBLESHOOT: You can disconnect the yellow off your starter relay so that when you twist the key to "start" you are not flattening your cam.
1....Check "run" voltage at the coil with key in "run." Should be at least 6 or so, but might be less if you have wrong ballast or a "heavy" hot coil This can run anywhere from 6--10V depending on coil/ ballast and battery charge, and condition of wiring. CHECK for excessive voltage drop by checking the "switch" side of the ballast. In other words, coil side of ballast can run 6--10V, "switch" side should be "same as battery."

2...Check coil+ voltage during "start" with key twisted to start. Should be "same as battery."

IF EITHER of these are low from the switch, you need to check the "path" which is.........

battery........starter relay stud.........fuse link.........through the bulkhead (RED) to ammeter..........through ammeter......out on black ammeter wire.........to under dash "welded splice".........to ignition swtich connector..........through the switch......out the switch connector on "IGN1" or IGN2" depending on "run" or "start"..........back out bulkhead...........and connect to ballast, VR, etc.

Your biggest suspects are the bulkhead connector terminals, the switch connector, and the switch.
 
Let's start at the top. I've verified that #1 is at TDC with visually checking the valves and also have compression using a compression tester. Spark plug wiring order is correct (my son and I have quadruple checked this), fuel in carb and it squirts when i move the throttle. Distributor rotor is pointed right at #1 and verified with powering the coil and pulling plug and moving cap until spark. Engine is at 10 degrees BTDC for this part. Jumpered coil + directly to battery positive. Battery fully charged. New plugs gap checked, new spark plug wires.

Still no go. Not even a few pops like I had on the weekend. I'm worried about flattening the cam if I keep trying it too much. So I keep going over everything twice maybe three times before turning it over. The only question I have is that some threads about timing say up to 18 degrees for a 360, but my timing marks only go to 10.
 
OK a few more comments

YOU CAN SAVE THE CAM if you are really into a "can of worms" here by REMOVING THE ROCKER GEAR. See? Easy LOL

You don't need to crank the engine to troubleshoot ignition, but it will be really handy to have two people. You can as I said earlier, disconnect the yellow start wire at the relay. This will keep the engine from cranking. Now, when you twist the key, you will get the same voltage/ current path situation for the ignition, as if it WERE cranking

Pull the dist. You can spin it by hand to test spark.

YOU DO NOT need to check valves physically. You can check for the correct firing stroke simply by compression at no1, OR check the valves. Either, or.

Timing. Just estimate. You can visualize the distance between to 10* marks, you can either guess "how far" you are from that, or measure between two, then measure that distance from the last one to obtain 20. ETC

Have you actually checked spark right out of the coil? Don't use the coil wire, as even it could be open. "Rig" a spark gap with a plug "opened up" etc
 
Does it turn over exceptionally fast? Is it building good compression? Not knowing anything of the build lets me wonder if the valves are seating.
 
Does it turn over exceptionally fast? Is it building good compression? Not knowing anything of the build lets me wonder if the valves are seating.

This and bear in mind that we have a member here who could not get a new build to run. TURNS OUT THE CAM was a marine reverse rotation grind.
 
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