First time start - no go

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If you eventually find that the ignition system checks out OK......you're going to have to consider if the timing chain was installed properly?? Not now, but eventually.
 
Treblig said:
If you eventually find that the ignition system checks out OK......you're going to have to consider if the timing chain was installed properly?? Not now, but eventually.
Click to expand...
Treblig said:
If you eventually find that the ignition system checks out OK......you're going to have to consider if the timing chain was installed properly?? Not now, but eventually.
Click to expand...

THIS. If you are using a multi key advance / retard sprocket set, it's easy to make a mistake. Google it, you can "get an idea" of cam timing by observing the valves with everything assembled. You'll have to mark the dampener or get a degree wheel. You can "figure" the dampener markings by measuring around the outside then figuring how many degrees per inch
 
Thanks guys. Oh yes I have spark all right. Forgot about the power down discharge too, wham through my hand holding the spark plug all the way to my leg touching the fender. Son of a !@#$. I forgot how much that hurts. So I guess I'll have to set the timing to an estimated 18 to 20 degrees BTDC and give er a try again. Thanks for the suggestions.
 
67Dart273 said:
THIS. If you are using a multi key advance / retard sprocket set, it's easy to make a mistake. Google it, you can "get an idea" of cam timing by observing the valves with everything assembled. You'll have to mark the dampener or get a degree wheel. You can "figure" the dampener markings by measuring around the outside then figuring how many degrees per inch
Click to expand...
Sorry you lost me at multi key advance/retard sprocket set. I'l have to Google it.
 
Bodyperson said:
Does it turn over exceptionally fast? Is it building good compression? Not knowing anything of the build lets me wonder if the valves are seating.
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It's getting good compression, turns over like a bear. Has that nice deep rumble that tells me it will sound even nicer when it actually fires up.
 
Bl1zzard said:
Sorry you lost me at multi key advance/retard sprocket set. I'l have to Google it.
Click to expand...


An advance / retard timing drive has more than one keyway on the crank sprocket. Many old school had 3 keys, modern once can have 6? Anyhow you pick how far you want to move the cam and then use the mark that goes with the key. These are easy to screw up

A new engine should not be hard to fire. I would be starting from page 1 and check everything. It needs compression, cam in time, spark in time, GOOD fuel and a good battery and starter. Something is wrong I would be checking cam timing or valve settings. At the very least you should get pops/ backfires etc

Have you checked are the plugs gas fouled?
 
Bl1zzard said:
Sorry you lost me at multi key advance/retard sprocket set. I'l have to Google it.
Click to expand...

When I installed my timing chain gear set. The crank gear had three position you could use. Each position was marked differently. On mine. one was marked with a square,another with triangle, another with circle. Stock chains you line up the circles. That's what I did on my new chain even though it stated use square marking for stock setting ( yes I'm brain dead) had to break it down and correct. All turned out well.Looks similar to this.
Timing gear.jpg
 
Oh, don't quote me on square setting either. It was a while ago. Just trying to help explain lower gear.Do your research if you have to go down this road.
 
Bl1zzard said:
Thanks guys. Oh yes I have spark all right. Forgot about the power down discharge too, wham through my hand holding the spark plug all the way to my leg touching the fender. Son of a !@#$. I forgot how much that hurts. So I guess I'll have to set the timing to an estimated 18 to 20 degrees BTDC and give er a try again. Thanks for the suggestions.
Click to expand...
OW!

But it is good you said this..... it brings up a possible test problem. If you are testing spark with a spark plug in open air, this is 100% wrong. It only takes a few thousand volts to produce a spark across that small gap in open air, but will take 20,000-30,000 volt minimum to arc across that same small gap in a compressed fuel-air mixture. So your spark can be be super weak and still jump that gap in open air, but will never fire an engine.

For proper test of spark voltage, you need to take the plug wire off of the spark plug and see if it will jump a 3/8" gap to metal (like a valve cover) in open air. If not, then you have a faulty ignition component.
 
67Dart273 said:
An advance / retard timing drive has more than one keyway on the crank sprocket. Many old school had 3 keys, modern once can have 6? Anyhow you pick how far you want to move the cam and then use the mark that goes with the key. These are easy to screw up

A new engine should not be hard to fire. I would be starting from page 1 and check everything. It needs compression, cam in time, spark in time, GOOD fuel and a good battery and starter. Something is wrong I would be checking cam timing or valve settings. At the very least you should get pops/ backfires etc

Have you checked are the plugs gas fouled?
Click to expand...

good compression - check
cam in time - have to research, beyond my limited abilities
spark in time - check
good fuel - check just bought is last weekend 91 octane
good battery - check bought it from my son who works in parts, fully charged.
good starter - check brand new
good plugs - check brand new no gas fouling noted

I guess it's time for me to learn about cam timing and valve settings.

Thanks!
 
Any chance that the old fuel was not pulled out?

Would you mind saying if you have been spark testing across a spark plug gap in open air? Or across a large gap in open air? Just trying to help you run this down.
 
nm9stheham said:
Any chance that the old fuel was not pulled out?

Would you mind saying if you have been spark testing across a spark plug gap in open air? Or across a large gap in open air? Just trying to help you run this down.
Click to expand...

No she was dry as a bone. The last time it was registered was 1985. I think it's been under restoration since then. I'm not sure how long ago the engine was rebuilt, but the carb was dry. It wasn't even installed when I bought the car, it was in a box in the back seat. It squirts pretty nicely when I hit the gas, so I pretty sure it's getting gas properly.

I haven't test spark in a large gap, only with the spark plug in open air.
 
oldkimmer said:
If ur plugs are not gas fouled from all the cranking with the no start are u sure it’s getting fuel? Kim
Click to expand...

Pretty sure, I've only cranked a total of 30 seconds at most. I really don't want to flatten the cam. Most posts I've read say if it doesn't fire right up then stop cranking. That's the advice I've been following.

BTW, thanks for the linkage. It works great once I figured out how to install the grommets. Rubber mallet is my friend.
 
If you want to quickly (and I mean quickly) address the fuel issue at any level hit it with a touch of crack (starter fluid) and if everything is in place it will sound off and then come up with a game plan.

Any other issues short of a solid spark which you may have addressed is already being talked about......

JW
 
Bl1zzard said:
No she was dry as a bone. The last time it was registered was 1985. I think it's been under restoration since then. I'm not sure how long ago the engine was rebuilt, but the carb was dry. It wasn't even installed when I bought the car, it was in a box in the back seat. It squirts pretty nicely when I hit the gas, so I pretty sure it's getting gas properly.

I haven't test spark in a large gap, only with the spark plug in open air.
Click to expand...
OK, good on the fuel. I have no idea if there could be any residue that could come out of the system, but my best guess is that you are OK with just dumping new fuel in there.

BTW, as for fuel questions, a sure way to get past any fueling questions is to simply:
  • put in a fresh set of plugs
  • dump about 1 teaspoon of fresh fuel straight down the carb primaries
  • open the carb up a small amount and see if it will fire.
  • If it does not, then go look for ignition or other problems.

Please take my advice on the spark testing; I am not just making this up. Spark across a spark plug gap in open is totally meaningless for what is needed to fire the mixture in the engine; it takes 5 to 10 times as much spark voltage to jump that same small gap in a compressed fuel-air mixture. Looking at the spark across a spark plug gap in open air is good to see if the system is triggering at all, but does not tell you anything useful about the level of spark voltage. You can can have a bad coil and get weak sparks but it will not fire the engine. Your symptoms indicate that this is possible.
 
Treblig said:
If you eventually find that the ignition system checks out OK......you're going to have to consider if the timing chain was installed properly?? Not now, but eventually.
Click to expand...
For those of you left wondering, yes the timing chain was installed 40 degrees off. The engine would have never started. I finally took it to a trusted Mopar mechanic and he poured over it, good spark, good fuel, timing set properly, hmm compression was a low for his liking. Did some boroscope peeking around, nothing out of the ordinary. Finally did a true TDC exam and found the timing marks about 40 degrees off. He's pulling the water pump off and fixing it now. He fully expects it to fire right up after he buttons it all back up. Thanks!
 
Bl1zzard said:
For those of you left wondering, yes the timing chain was installed 40 degrees off. The engine would have never started. I finally took it to a trusted Mopar mechanic and he poured over it, good spark, good fuel, timing set properly, hmm compression was a low for his liking. Did some boroscope peeking around, nothing out of the ordinary. Finally did a true TDC exam and found the timing marks about 40 degrees off. He's pulling the water pump off and fixing it now. He fully expects it to fire right up after he buttons it all back up. Thanks!
Click to expand...
I love it when I'm "correct"......once a year!!!!!! See post #28:thumbsup::steering:
 
How can you have good compression when the timing chain is 40 degrees off? Bent valves or pushrods?
 
pt70 said:
How can you have good compression when the timing chain is 40 degrees off? Bent valves or pushrods?
Click to expand...
Certainly a good question.... Since it's a stock LA360, then pistons are around .100-110" in the hole, and with a dish. Cam spec is not clear but being a Purple, probably not a high lift cam anyway. Being advanced could/would actually increase the cranking compression.

40* is just under 3 teeth.... so maybe the crank key was set straight up when the chain was installed. That key sets about 3 teeth off of vertical when things are right.

Good to find a solid reason!
 
Yep it started right away after he positioned the timing chain properly. Yay! I can't thank everyone on these forums enough. :thankyou: You have all been most helpful for even the stupidest questions. Now for a laugh. It started right up and immediately started puking tranny fluid all over the floor. Seems we forgot (or didn't know) the transmission cooling lines to the rad. :steering:
Well, if any of you happen to be in Calgary, Alberta, Canada some time, stop by for a beer and say hi.:canada:
 
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