1970 Dodge Dart- No crank or start- Battery draw

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Mgc340

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Hello,

I'm needing a bit of help with a 1970 Dodge Dart I'm building. A little history on the car is as follows. Its an original paint, body, 65,000 survivor car that was a 6 cylinder car. It's been converted to a v8. It has a mild 408 stroker in it. MSD 6al box with a Blaster coil. MSD distributor etc.

I replaced the turn signal switch last winter and had the steering column out for some touch up on the paint.

The motor is getting close to being able to start up. I have two problems:

1. I installed a Optima battery. I hooked up all my wires to the starter relay. I got busy and didn't touch the car for a week. When I got some time to mess with it the battery was dead. I checked for draws and found a 2 amp draw. I started testing wires and found that the wire going from the positive battery post to the starter relay lug was the draw. I unhooked the wire from the battery and my draw went away.

I replaced the starter relay thinking it was bad and that did not take care of the problem. I tested my yellow wire going to the starter relay from the ignition switch thinking maybe I had power all the time. The only time I have power to the yellow wire at the starter relay is when the key is to the run position so that good there.

When I hook the battery wire up to the the starter relay I can hear a click in the steering column area or under the dash? So its energizing something and draining my battery?

2. My second problem is when I turn the key to start the vehicle it will not crank. I can just hear a clicking sound again coming from the column area or under the dash. When I try to start the car I can see my volts gauge peg down then back up after I let off the key.

I CAN jump the starter at the starter relay to engage the starter.

Does anyone have any ideas here? I'm thinking I have something defective or not put together correctly in the steering column from when I replace the turn signal switch. I have headlights, brake lights, and flashers but no turn signals? Could a bad turn signal switch be the cause of my no start issues as well?

Thanks in advance for the help.
 
Mgc340 said:
Hello,

I'm needing a bit of help with a 1970 Dodge Dart I'm building. A little history on the car is as follows. Its an original paint, body, 65,000 survivor car that was a 6 cylinder car. It's been converted to a v8. It has a mild 408 stroker in it. MSD 6al box with a Blaster coil. MSD distributor etc.

I replaced the turn signal switch last winter and had the steering column out for some touch up on the paint.

The motor is getting close to being able to start up. I have two problems:

1. I installed a Optima battery. I hooked up all my wires to the starter relay. I got busy and didn't touch the car for a week. When I got some time to mess with it the battery was dead. I checked for draws and found a 2 amp draw. I started testing wires and found that the wire going from the positive battery post to the starter relay lug was the draw. I unhooked the wire from the battery and my draw went away.

I replaced the starter relay thinking it was bad and that did not take care of the problem. I tested my yellow wire going to the starter relay from the ignition switch thinking maybe I had power all the time. The only time I have power to the yellow wire at the starter relay is when the key is to the run position so that good there.

When I hook the battery wire up to the the starter relay I can hear a click in the steering column area or under the dash? So its energizing something and draining my battery?

2. My second problem is when I turn the key to start the vehicle it will not crank. I can just hear a clicking sound again coming from the column area or under the dash. When I try to start the car I can see my volts gauge peg down then back up after I let off the key.

I CAN jump the starter at the starter relay to engage the starter.

Does anyone have any ideas here? I'm thinking I have something defective or not put together correctly in the steering column from when I replace the turn signal switch. I have headlights, brake lights, and flashers but no turn signals? Could a bad turn signal switch be the cause of my no start issues as well?

Thanks in advance for the help.
Click to expand...
did you go from auto to manual trans ? could be the neutral safety switch needs to be grounded
 
I think you have a stuck horn relay caused by bad horn button switch. or maybe "if you have" the lighted "key in" feature (time delay)

What do you have on the car that is aftermarket? Alarm? Radio? ?

HOW TO FIND draw:

Get a couple of different wattage test lamps. I use an old stop/ tail socket and lamp, as well as a lighter wattage store bought probe type test lamp.

Disconnect the battery ground and experiment with test lamps until you get one the right wattage to light up so that you can see it. Hook the lamp from ground to the battery neg post. The more the draw the brighter it will light. If your smallest lamp is barely visible, you can put your multimeter in there in series set to read current.

Now pull fuses one at a time. Be sure everything is off...and don't forget dome/ courtesy/ trunk/ glove box lamps and the cig lighter. Aftermarket radio.

If fuses are all out and it still lights, unhook the main output (black) wire on the alternator. From there we will have to do some more thinking. There isn't all that much "stuff" that is not through the fuse box. Headlights and the ignition switch for example. You can unplug the ignition siwtch connector to isolate that
 
Mgc ; you've gotten excellent answers above. To check the neutral safety switch, negative battery terminal can be off, unplug the 'G' wire, likely dark green, from the starter relay. Connect a test light between the positive battery terminal and the dark green wire. It should light up when the trans is in park or neutral. It should be off when in any other gear.

Do you still have the ammeter connected and working? Wipers? Heater fan?

The yellow wire being hot in the run position has me mystified.
 
67Dart273 said:
I think you have a stuck horn relay caused by bad horn button switch. or maybe "if you have" the lighted "key in" feature (time delay)

What do you have on the car that is aftermarket? Alarm? Radio? ?

HOW TO FIND draw:

Get a couple of different wattage test lamps. I use an old stop/ tail socket and lamp, as well as a lighter wattage store bought probe type test lamp.

Disconnect the battery ground and experiment with test lamps until you get one the right wattage to light up so that you can see it. Hook the lamp from ground to the battery neg post. The more the draw the brighter it will light. If your smallest lamp is barely visible, you can put your multimeter in there in series set to read current.

Now pull fuses one at a time. Be sure everything is off...and don't forget dome/ courtesy/ trunk/ glove box lamps and the cig lighter. Aftermarket radio.

If fuses are all out and it still lights, unhook the main output (black) wire on the alternator. From there we will have to do some more thinking. There isn't all that much "stuff" that is not through the fuse box. Headlights and the ignition switch for example. You can unplug the ignition siwtch connector to isolate that
Click to expand...

Thanks for the response. I will check this stuff and start eliminating things as causes and let you know what I find!
 
pt70 said:
Mgc ; you've gotten excellent answers above. To check the neutral safety switch, negative battery terminal can be off, unplug the 'G' wire, likely dark green, from the starter relay. Connect a test light between the positive battery terminal and the dark green wire. It should light up when the trans is in park or neutral. It should be off when in any other gear.

Do you still have the ammeter connected and working? Wipers? Heater fan?

The yellow wire being hot in the run position has me mystified.
Click to expand...

I don't have any after market ad on like radio or alarms. Yes my ammeter works. The guy before me took the wiper motor out and the heater fan. The wires for that stuff are there but unplugged. I will check my horn button and the NSS hopefully tonight and post what I find. Thanks!
 
Mgc340 said:
1. I installed a Optima battery. I hooked up all my wires to the starter relay. I got busy and didn't touch the car for a week. When I got some time to mess with it the battery was dead. I checked for draws and found a 2 amp draw. I started testing wires and found that the wire going from the positive battery post to the starter relay lug was the draw. I unhooked the wire from the battery and my draw went away.
Click to expand...
As you found out, that's the main power feed. It's ALWAYS hot. Disconnecting it is basically the same as disconnecting the battery. The stud on the relay is just a junction.

Mgc340 said:
When I hook the battery wire up to the the starter relay I can hear a click in the steering column area or under the dash? So its energizing something and draining my battery?
Click to expand...
That seems to be correct conclusion. The ammeter should move slightly toward discharge. The scale on the meter is 40 to 0 to 40 amps. So small currents aren't going to move the needle much.

Mgc340 said:
had the steering column out for some touch up on the paint.
Click to expand...
Could easily have pinched or scraped a wire's insulation. One of those wires going up the column leading to the switch is connected to the main circuit. In otehr words, its always hot.
67Dart273 said:
I think you have a stuck horn relay caused by bad horn button switch.
Click to expand...
Definately another possibility. The click could be the horn relay. I don't know where its located on a '70.

Mgc340 said:
I don't have any after market ad on like radio or alarms. Yes my ammeter works. The guy before me took the wiper motor out and the heater fan. The wires for that stuff are there but unplugged. I will check my horn button and the NSS hopefully tonight and post what I find. Thanks!
Click to expand...
IIRC, the wiper power feeds to the wiper switch first, so check that's off, and no power present at the wiper motor feed wire.
The heater fan only can get power when the key is in Run or Accessory position. Again I believe it goes through the fan switch first.

With key off, everything up to the key switch and headlight switch is hot.
Not shown is the horn power - only because I don't know where it taps in on a '70.
upload_2019-10-17_10-0-32.png




Mgc340 said:
2. My second problem is when I turn the key to start the vehicle it will not crank. I can just hear a clicking sound again coming from the column area or under the dash. When I try to start the car I can see my volts gauge peg down then back up after I let off the key.
Click to expand...
The ammeter should swing slightly to discharge - about 5 amps, and the battery voltage will drop under load. If the battery it drops below 9.5 Volts while starter is engaged, that's an indication the battery was not fully charged or is failing.

With an Optima, its important to recharge slowly (low current) otherwise the battery will get hot and not recharge well.
 
With key in Start, power should flow through the yellow wire to flip the relay, and also through the brown (ignition2) wire which connects to the coil.
The brown wire bypasses the the ballast resistor. This is because, as you now know, voltage during start up is already far lower than it will be with the engine running (around 14 V).
upload_2019-10-17_10-29-27.png


When power flows through the starter relay from the yellow wire (S2) through the neutral safety switch to ground, then the brown wire (S5) to the solenoid in the starter gets energized.
The brown wire's gets power direct from the red wire (A) coming from the battery to the starter relay.
upload_2019-10-17_10-36-26.png
 
Last edited:
Good news! I resolved both problems! I found the the horn relay and unplugged it. My battery draw went away and the car turned over with the key! What a great sound to hear!!! I now know I have either a issue with the starter relay or like the above comments said the horn button is stuck down. Thanks guys for all the help!
 
Mgc; your starter relay is working as it should. I'd take off the horn pad and look at the horn switch. It is a flat donut shaped switch. There is a black wire with a push on terminal connected to it. If this wire is grounded anywhere it will fire the horn relay.
 
I assume you meant there is "either an issue with the horn relay...or horn button."
I think pt70 suggestion is a good place to start.
Because when the power was hooked up, you could hear the relay clicking. Therefore the relay was getting flipped on (ie. power from the horn switch).
But the horn never sounded. So, that's the other part you'll to trace. Either the relay was not getting power from the main circuit, or the hrons weren't getting power from the relay.
 
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