rmchrgr
Skate And Destroy
Not in Stock but in certain classes of Super Stock they are.
376" R3 W8
416", W8s, Lenco.
Anyone flowbench the trickflow 190 heads yet???
- Thread starter duster360
- Start date
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Not in Stock but in certain classes of Super Stock they are.
376" R3 W8
416", W8s, Lenco.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
PRH
Well-Known Member
I’ve made in the 580’s with ported RPM heads and an easy on parts roller cam.
You def couldn’t duplicate that level of performance with another set of RPM’s for what you could buy the TF’s for.
So, if the TF’s were exactly as good as that set of ported RPM’s, and made the exact same power........ it would be equal performance for less $$$.
Plus...... you can buy them set up with a 2” installed height and roller springs to accommodate a .700 lift cam.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
Yeah, I bone headed that post. I was thinking traditional SS classes as you mention. Totally my bad.
RAMM
Well-Known Member
I hear ya on that. I just haven't seen results that made me say WOW. I guess that's because I've become a little jaded/cynical with what goes into a combo to see exceptional results-I consider it kinda normal but really it isn't. I've built dozens of 408-416's that ALL made 530-550-580 hp all with Edelbrocks, IndyBrocks, LA's, Magnums, and EQ Magnums. Oddly enough that last head on what I just listed made the highest HP on that list@ 10.5 comp.
Again I am SURE the TF's are a great value for the guy that can't/won't/doesn't port heads but they really aren't blowing me away ATM. I think I'm gonna order some just to see what I see. Plus I should be able to sell them quite easily based on all the hype. Then again I had a HELLUVA a hard time selling my Hughes BM's advertised at 319 cfm. Oh and those didn't make a jawdropping amount of HP either. J.Rob
PRH
Well-Known Member
You weren’t really expecting them to after looking them over and flowing them though.
And..... the TF’s are less $$$.
Here the test....... two sets of heads.
The TF’s right ootb....... do nothing but bolt them on.
The same as what anyone could do.
The other set, some RPMs that you buy new, and upgrade only as much as you can, and have them not cost any more(customer price), parts and labor, than what the TF’s cost.
Dyno both on the same 550hp plus capable short block/induction/valvetrain.
See how they stack up in the bang for the buck category.
I’m not really suggesting you do that....... but that’s really the only way to answer the “value” question.
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RAMM
Well-Known Member
I agree with you Dwayne, I'd love to do that.
I betcha they wind up DARN close like less than 10 HP/Lb/ft close.
A customer walks in and says I
want a 500+ HP 408 and aluminum heads. I'm not gonna instantly sell them a 408 with TF's. I'm gonna sell him a truly CUSTOMIZED (investing myself-cuz I'm passionate about this stuff) engine with heads that are the best VALUE and will also meet their expectations. The upshot is substantial --meaning TF's are not even close in price to SM's or Eddy's -so I can work and earn $$$$ to meet the HP goal that a TF would provide.
In short if I can make an Eddy work as well as a TF and make some $ doing it then as long as I'm not rushed or lazy I will take that route. Or if the customer specifies the TF's I would use them I should add.
From what I have seen the TF's even with their gorgeous chambers and gorgeous CNC work and wicked flow rates should make A LOT more power than what is being reported.
We should start yet another thread about cylinder head flow rates and why a 265 cfm head makes more power than a 300+ cfm head. I've witnessed it many many times. I am getting a good on handle on what REALLY makes power. The other side of the HP coin is --HOW hard does it accelerate? I have been in high HP rides that didn't accelerate nearly as hard as a 500 HP package. J.Rob
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
Your last paragraph needs to be read. And read. And re-read over and over and over and over. You can't read it too many times.
That's one issue the water brake dyno has. It doesn't measure the ability to accelerate. Doesn't mean it isn't an a tool you shouldn't use every time. Like a flow bench, you need to understand what the tools limit is.
Read that last paragraph over and over. RAMM nailed it.
RAMM
Well-Known Member
Thanks YR! Thanks again. J.Rob
We should start yet another thread about cylinder head flow rates and why a 265 cfm head makes more power than a 300+ cfm head. I've witnessed it many many times. I am getting a good on handle on what REALLY makes power. The other side of the HP coin is --HOW hard does it accelerate? I have been in high HP rides that didn't accelerate nearly as hard as a 500 HP package. J.Rob
I would enjoy that kind of thread vary much
I would enjoy that kind of thread vary much
RAMM
Well-Known Member
The problem with the dyno is that IT dictates how the RPM's are accelerated. The inertia based dyno that the Carb builder shootout at BLP was held on is probably thee BEST to figure this stuff out on. I think most dynos do a good job but unscrupulous operators are the biggest chink in their armour. J.Rlob
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
And sadly, I damn near owned one of those dyno's. If I wasn't working for a full blown crook I'd still be using it.
And you are right. The water brake dyno does a fine job. Operator fibbing is a concern, just like a flow bench.
Still sick about that dyno. It was built, shipped and at the door. It was this >< close. Dyno room was built. Done. Mike was coming out for two weeks to work with me to get it up and running.
That was 2002 and I'm still pissed off over the whole deal
PRH
Well-Known Member
On a SF 901 dyno, if you do the test with the servo switch in the “manual” mode, the valve gets opened linearly.
Then you can look at the time intervals between the specified rpm increments and see where the motor accelerated harder, since there will be less time between the rpm increments where the motor pulls harder.
Then you can look at the time intervals between the specified rpm increments and see where the motor accelerated harder, since there will be less time between the rpm increments where the motor pulls harder.
We should start a Dyno post to see who has the fastest DYNO. Lol
mderoy340
Well-Known Member
No need, I have it. It has a special dial to adjust the tail wind.
j par
Well-hung Member
And I could derail it!...We should start yet another thread about cylinder head flow rates and why a 265 cfm head makes more power than a 300+ cfm head. I've witnessed it many many times. I am getting a good on handle on what REALLY makes power. The other side of the HP coin is --HOW hard does it accelerate? I have been in high HP rides that didn't accelerate nearly as hard as a 500 HP package. J.Rob
I would enjoy that kind of thread vary much
...lol...
Hey I don’t like that number. I’m going to crank in some of that east coast super duper air.
Wyrmrider
Well-Known Member
right
RAMM nailed it
RAMM nailed it
MOPAROFFICIAL
Oogliboogli
It's right under the nose.
Slow **** speed is what big mouths and bloomer suffer from.
Classic case of its more than cfm numbers.. is the port really working or just some of it.
Wet flow helps show a lot of that the pitot doesnt.
Slow **** speed is what big mouths and bloomer suffer from.
Classic case of its more than cfm numbers.. is the port really working or just some of it.
Wet flow helps show a lot of that the pitot doesnt.
B3422w5
Well-Known Member
I will throw my 2 cents in, for what its worth( likely not much..lol)
I am familiar with a typical bracket type build Trick flow stroker combo. Have seen it go down the track in differing weather.
Based on what it has run thus far, and builds i myself( and others) have run with eddie heads, on otherwise very similar combo’s( taking weight, etc into account, compression, etc, etc.. my opinion is that the trick flow heads are similar to a well done( ie Modern cylinder cnc job type ) eddie head.
When i say similar, my opinion is that there is very little difference from an out of the box trick flow and solidly worked Eddie regards ET/ mph. I frankly expected to see a notable difference... say maybe pushing 3 tenths type stuff, but i am relatively positive there is nowhere near that kind of difference.
Bear in mind, that is an out of the box head we are talking about, versus a nicely done eddie....but.... doesnt seem to me there is much difference. Based on actual track results, not bench racing.
I reserve the right to change my mind if i get better info to weigh.
I am familiar with a typical bracket type build Trick flow stroker combo. Have seen it go down the track in differing weather.
Based on what it has run thus far, and builds i myself( and others) have run with eddie heads, on otherwise very similar combo’s( taking weight, etc into account, compression, etc, etc.. my opinion is that the trick flow heads are similar to a well done( ie Modern cylinder cnc job type ) eddie head.
When i say similar, my opinion is that there is very little difference from an out of the box trick flow and solidly worked Eddie regards ET/ mph. I frankly expected to see a notable difference... say maybe pushing 3 tenths type stuff, but i am relatively positive there is nowhere near that kind of difference.
Bear in mind, that is an out of the box head we are talking about, versus a nicely done eddie....but.... doesnt seem to me there is much difference. Based on actual track results, not bench racing.
I reserve the right to change my mind if i get better info to weigh.
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PRH
Well-Known Member
I don’t know why there would be such an expectation from the TF heads.
They aren’t any bigger, and don’t flow any more than the MCH type of CNC job on the RPM heads.
Imo, the biggest benefit to the TF head is what you get for the $$$$, and that they are available with 2” installed height springs.
B3422w5
Well-Known Member
Agree 100%
Just stating what i have seen. There might well be those who expected the TF head to run off and hide from a ported eddie.
Based on what i have seen that isnt the case.
The point is, if somebody already has an eddie type head, it will be cheaper to get it to a TF type level, than buying the new heads to do so.
If starting from scratch, the answer would be different. Buy the better casting with the built in advantages you mention, just know going in( some might not) it isnt going to perform like an Indy/W2 or maybe even a B1BA type head.
67autocross
A new iron curtain drawn across the 49th parallel
We should build an engine and ship it to a half a dozen different dynos around the country and see the results, they did the same thing with flow benches and a cylinder head at one time....
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