SBM Roller Lifter Choice

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Hylift Johnson makes a good quality lifter as does BAM, Jones Cams, Crower.
 
Duane said:
You and I had this conversation a while ago and I sent you pics to show you. Here they are again. Look closely.

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I forgot. You are the only one who calls those inboard link bars. Those are outboard link bars. When the bars face the cam, those are inboard link bars.

It's confusing. AFAIK, the 59 degree LBA small block Chrysler is the only engine with outboard link bars. Everything else uses inboard link bars.

What you have are standard outboard link bar lifters.
 
yellow rose said:
I forgot. You are the only one who calls those inboard link bars. Those are outboard link bars. When the bars face the cam, those are inboard link bars.

It's confusing. AFAIK, the 59 degree LBA small block Chrysler is the only engine with outboard link bars. Everything else uses inboard link bars.

What you have are standard outboard link bar lifters.
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Thanks for the education, but I did post the pics. They are not standard in relation to a 59 degree block. The normal comp cams lifters look very similar, but the link bar is behind the lifter and sometimes requires grinding the block for clearance.
The sportsman lifter do not require grinding the block as the link bar is inside.
The are outboard as far as your description compared to other engines, but they are not standard for a 59 deg Mopar. These lifters as far as I know we're made specifically for the replacement 340 block when it came out. Mopar claimed you could not use a roller cam with this block due to extra block material on this casting. This was comp cams way to solve the problem. As far as I know, no one else makes a lifter for the small block that has the link bar on this side, so I would not call it standard. IMHO. But I appreciate you educating me on my terminology.
 
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Duane said:
Have a look at the new comp cams sportsman series.
They should meet your criteria. You can get them with a bronze
Bushed axle or needle bearings. They have an .800 wheel, pressure fed edm directly to the axle, can be used if desired with pushrods oiling, staked axles that do not use "C" clips that can fail.
They also have the link bar moved inboard, so you will not have to grind the block. The proper way to use solid rollers in a small block is to tube or bush the block precisely for the reasons that Charles has posted. I personally do not understand this trend for everyone to use a hydraulic cam in a performance application.
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Bushing or bearing for a street application?
 
512Stroker said:
Which manufacture produces this lifter? P/N?
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From there website. They are not cheap, and you can get them with your choice of needle bearing axle or bushed axle.

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512Stroker said:
Bushing or bearing for a street application?
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I would say the jury is still out on the bushed as far as durability.
I was mainly after the bushed and the no axle clips to fall out and into the motor in a failure, no needle bearings either to get in the motor. Many people using the needle bearing without issue because of the oil pressure fed axle design.
The theory is with a bushed you have more surface area at high spring rates. Think connecting rods with bushed pins.
 
Duane said:
I would say the jury is still out on the bushed as far as durability.
I was mainly after the bushed and the no axle clips to fall out and into the motor in a failure, no needle bearings either to get in the motor. Many people using the needle bearing without issue because of the oil pressure fed axle design.
The theory is with a bushed you have more surface area at high spring rates. Think connecting rods with bushed pins.
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Boy you are right they are proud$ of them.
I will be honest with ya I not a big fan of Comp. I paid good money for the Comp lifters I have now and they are junk. On top of that they have some of the worst Tech and Warranty service that I have witnessed.
 
512Stroker said:
Boy you are right they are proud$ of them.
I will be honest with ya I not a big fan of Comp. I paid good money for the Comp lifters I have now and they are junk. On top of that they have some of the worst Tech and Warranty service that I have witnessed.
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Because of the design of the Mopar oiling system, imho you really cannot use a hydraulic roller cam properly in these engines, and there really is no benefits. I would just run a regular flat tapper on the street.
I would not say that your issues are with comp cams, but an improperly prepared block. Anyone who claims they have a drop in hydraulic roller for a sbm is not being totally honest imho.
The sportsman lifter really are aimed at the racing crowd, but feature for feature and even at that price, I do not see anything that beats it imho. Who else makes staked axles to get rid of the clips.
 
They are proud of them for sure! Nice wheel diameter though @ .800.
 
Trying to piece together my knowledge on this topic. So we are talking strictly 340 and preroller 318/360's right? These blocks need mods and retrofit lifters?

While the roller 318/360's will not require anything special like bushing the bores or special retrofit lifters? Is there a thread or article that lays all of this out?
 
69valiant21 said:
Trying to piece together my knowledge on this topic. So we are talking strictly 340 and preroller 318/360's right? These blocks need mods and retrofit lifters?

While the roller 318/360's will not require anything special like bushing the bores or special retrofit lifters? Is there a thread or article that lays all of this out?
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I have no personal experience with the roller 318,360, so I cannot comment. But as far as I know those blocks are not much different,
But it may be the design of the factory roller lifter that allows them, to work trouble free.
A performance application with more cam lift may be a different story.
You are right that we need a sticky thread on this subject as it comes up all the time when people like the Op buy hydraulic rollers and report problems.
The original Chrysler engine book explains the problems with trying to run solid rollers in the earlier non roller blocks.
One of the previous posters who showed pictures of the drilled passages not being even, also sheds some light on the problems.
Perhaps some others can chime in. According to the Chrysler book, to run a roller cam trouble free with good oil pressure, requires tubing the block or bushing the lifter bores to control excessive oil leakage. Not much has changed to alleviate this issue, yet there are some companies marketing drop in replacement hydraulic(more leakage) roller lifters. Some people have no problems, others do.
 
512Stroker said:
Boy you are right they are proud$ of them.
I will be honest with ya I not a big fan of Comp. I paid good money for the Comp lifters I have now and they are junk. On top of that they have some of the worst Tech and Warranty service that I have witnessed.
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They are only $200 more than the crane ultra,staked axles, edm oil passages and bushed axles.Good rollers cost money. Even the good cranes are $800.00 and do not have the same features and you may have to grind the block for clearance. The comp have the link bar inside specifically for Mopars and 2 more very good features for $200.00 more.
 
Duane said:
Thanks for the education, but I did post the pics. They are not standard in relation to a 59 degree block. The normal comp cams lifters look very similar, but the link bar is behind the lifter and sometimes requires grinding the block for clearance.
The sportsman lifter do not require grinding the block as the link bar is inside.
The are outboard as far as your description compared to other engines, but they are not standard for a 59 deg Mopar. These lifters as far as I know we're made specifically for the replacement 340 block when it came out. Mopar claimed you could not use a roller cam with this block due to extra block material on this casting. This was comp cams way to solve the problem. As far as I know, no one else makes a lifter for the small block that has the link bar on this side, so I would not call it standard. IMHO. But I appreciate you educating me on my terminology.
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That wasn't an education. We have to use the same terminology or no one will have a clue. That's why I pointed that out.

That said...I have a Comp catalog coming because I hate using the web to find stuff like those lifters.

I'm aware that some of the link bars were hitting the block. I had to grind the block a bit on my T/A block and both my X blocks. But it wasn't much.

I'll see what this R block looks like when I get it clean later next week. Of course, I don't have any lifters here to check it, and I'm wobbling HARD between a roller and a mushroom lifter.

The least lifter I'd buy is the Crane Ultra Pro but I'd like a bushing lifter...I *THINK* I might want a bushed lifter.

OTOH, I've had a butt full of roller issues and I'm not big on running 280-300 on the seat on a street/strip car, because if I'm going roller, I'm going to net .750 lift or I'm not doing it.

And so it goes.

And you are correct...we need a sticky on this stuff to help guys from making bad decisions. Again, the least that should be done is the passenger side lifter gallery should be tubed. Even with solid flat lifters.
 
I forgot to mention in the above Mike Jones is making a bushed lifter that is steel on steel or something rather than bronze bushed. You'd have to call him and ask him about them but he didn't make them just to be different.

Also, it's funny...Tom Bailey said he is now running bushed lifters and bushed ROCKERS on his Drag Week stuff.

I've said my entire life never use needle bearings on a reciprocating shaft. It's bad engineering and Chevy did it because it's all they could do. Why the Chrysler guys want to copy that junk I'll never know.
 
yellow rose said:
That wasn't an education. We have to use the same terminology or no one will have a clue. That's why I pointed that out.

That said...I have a Comp catalog coming because I hate using the web to find stuff like those lifters.

I'm aware that some of the link bars were hitting the block. I had to grind the block a bit on my T/A block and both my X blocks. But it wasn't much.

I'll see what this R block looks like when I get it clean later next week. Of course, I don't have any lifters here to check it, and I'm wobbling HARD between a roller and a mushroom lifter.

The least lifter I'd buy is the Crane Ultra Pro but I'd like a bushing lifter...I *THINK* I might want a bushed lifter.

OTOH, I've had a butt full of roller issues and I'm not big on running 280-300 on the seat on a street/strip car, because if I'm going roller, I'm going to net .750 lift or I'm not doing it.

And so it goes.

And you are correct...we need a sticky on this stuff to help guys from making bad decisions. Again, the least that should be done is the passenger side lifter gallery should be tubed. Even with solid flat lifters.
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The real goal of the bushed lifter is big spring pressures. 280-300 on the seat is big pressure when opened to .750.
I have 200 on the seat and 700 open with a true reading at the valve of .705. I am told to minimize idling with the bushed axles to keep the splash oiling up. But I had my bores bushed with a .030 feed hole to keep oil going to the axles hopefully without a significant drop to overall system pressure. I thought it was a compromise.
 
Wholly crap I was just on Hugh’s website and can’t believe how much those Bamm lifters are now. Over 800.00 so I’m glad I have a set on my shelf. I might have to doing porting work again to afford this sport.
 
pittsburghracer said:
Wholly crap I was just on Hugh’s website and can’t believe how much those Bamm lifters are now. Over 800.00 so I’m glad I have a set on my shelf. I might have to doing porting work again to afford this sport.
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Those comp sport an lifters I bought have gone up $200.00 since I bought them 2 years ago. I hear you, this stuff ain't cheap. How am I gonna retire lol.
 
It probably doesn’t translate, but my father works on heavy metal stamping presses that run huge bushings. We’re talking TONS of pressure. 200+! I also like the idea of no small parts that can migrate and cause trouble elsewhere. When the bearing wears the lash opens.
 
furrystump said:
It probably doesn’t translate, but my father works on heavy metal stamping presses that run huge bushings. We’re talking TONS of pressure. 200+! I also like the idea of no small parts that can migrate and cause trouble elsewhere. When the bearing wears the lash opens.
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I think it does translate. With a bushing you have more surface area taking the load versus only a small point of contact on a very small needle bearing. I agree about small parts migrating, hence the magnets in my lift valley area. I chose the comp because hopefully worse case scenario if you have a failure, there are no needle bearing and with staked axles there are no "C" clips to get into the motor. Hopefully!! Time will tell if the bushing is better.
 
Duane said:
I think it does translate. With a bushing you have more surface area taking the load versus only a small point of contact on a very small needle bearing. I agree about small parts migrating, hence the magnets in my lift valley area. I chose the comp because thopefully worse case scenario if you have a failure, there are no needle bearing and with staked axles there are no "C" clips to get into the motor. Hopefully!!
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Bushings also tend to be made from softer materials (needed for conformance under load) which have better fatigue resistance but can't handle as much total load (lower yield strength). The failure mode tends to be over a longer time-span though, and can be detected by change in lash.

Bearings are hardened steel which can take higher total loading, but will often fatigue fail with micro cracking and spalling happening in quick succession, leading to catastrophic failure with seemingly no warning and lots more small parts coming free during the rapid disassembly.

Everything is a trade-off..
 
pittsburghracer said:
Wholly crap I was just on Hugh’s website and can’t believe how much those Bamm lifters are now. Over 800.00 so I’m glad I have a set on my shelf. I might have to doing porting work again to afford this sport.
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I looked at those Bam lifters, they have the link bars inside as well.
They look like nice lifters too, but yes all the good stuff is big money.
 
I remember as a kid them epoxying in screens over the oil return/cam window/holes in the valley to catch valve train pieces.
 
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